Looking forward to martial law: put the vets in charge.

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Maybe the chemtrails have got to me, but I'm tired of readings posts about what "they" are going to do at Y2K, today of all days.

I have the deepest respect for citizens - of ANY country - who have, or who are prepared to, put their lives on the line to defend their loved ones, their way of life, or even some abstract concept. I don't even care that much what concept they are defending, just that they have the courage and integrity to do it. Which is exactly why I find it a bit strange that there's so much apparently genuine Men In Black paranoia in this forum. "Prepare for the rule of Mars... Armed National Guard on manouvres... Battleship sighted lurking in Iowa cornfield." OK, I concede that the situation is different in the USA and the UK, but if we lurch towards TEOTWAWKI, I *want* well educated, square jawed fellows like like Cpt. Eton and Lt. Rugby to arrive with Sgt. Forelock in tow, and turn the flamethrowers on the nest of unruly suburban scum just up the road from me. Better still, they could stuff them into a uniform and get them doing some useful work.

I for one am not scared by the concept of Martial Law. It doesn't seem to be doing Pakistan any harm, and in case it's passed anyone by, having an unelected leader in charge of a country isn't *necessarily* a bad thing. Sure, it's bad for Iraq, which is why we call Mr Hussein a "dictator". But next door, Kuwait is prosperous and generally happy and they're our friends, so we refer to their ruler as a "monarch" and defend his despotism with the lives of our citizens. One is bad, the other not SO bad, but neither is elected and both are the head of their countrys' armed forces.

So, to those who "fear the rule of Mars", here's a question: does some magical transformation come over servicemen and women when they leave the military? Are they mindless robots while in uniform, but instantly become brave, socially conscious heroes worthy of respect when they are discharged? What's the difference? That they don't have a gun any more, so you don't fear them as much?

Anyone care to name a military officer currently serving in any democratic country who they can demonstrate has less courage, honesty, pragmatism and sense of duty to the people than even the best politician? If we hit TEOTWAWKI, we won't need cunning political animals to get us through in the short term, we'll need honest men and women with integrity. And big guns.

Prove me wrong on that, and then I'll maybe start "worrying" about martial law.

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 11, 1999

Answers

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Roswell Explained...

On July 8, 1947, witnesses claim a spaceship with five aliens aboard crashed on a sheep-and-cattle ranch outside Roswell, an incident they say has been covered up by the military. March 31, 1948, nine months after that day, Al Gore was born. That clears up a lot of things.

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-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), November 11, 1999.


--not against vets at all, already did a couple of pro-vet and mil pieces this week and today, but I can answer your question here: last war-yugoslavia-all branches and members of the services-this war was undeclared by congress, therefore illegal, and it was also illegal by NATO's own charter, and now it's coming out that the official reasons for the war-to stop alledged genocide-were mostly fabricated. And ALL of the doods and doodettes who were "ordered' by their alledged superior officers just followed orders, they bombed and strafed and killed a lot of folks, just because the king and the international bankers needed a few things, some of which were to divert media attention away from the kings scandals, ditto for blair in england, to help some big german banks get ahold of the huge mining complex in kosovo, to help some big international oil concerns work offshore oil fields in the adriatic, and last but not least, to help "someone" control the extremely lucrative drug smuggling routes through the region. that's one example how about waco, and what's starting to come out there, regarding delta force involvement in the murder of US citizens, most likely to protect disclosure of the cia's involvement with PROMIS software and theft? there's another Yep, I fear a military who "just follow orders" blindly. Brave military folks who refuse illegal orders or highly questionable injections are simply villified and prosecuted and persecuted beyond belief. refuse to wear the blue beanie of the UN? nailed to the wall. refuse to take an anti anthrax shot because you are afraid of the side effects and you get the brig if enlisted, and dishonorable discharge if officer. lot of examples. I remember kent state I remember jackson state I remember several hundred guard with 16's and gas masks, all looking at unarmed and non violent me, and me wondering when the shooting would start. I was "guilty" of exercising my rights. that's it. screw martial law, only in the most dire and extreme of emergencies would it be advisable, and frankly, a better solution for emergencies is-just my opinion- a return and non-demonization of the unorganized/ organized neighborhood militia. Not some force led by fatcat washinton politicos, local people who know the local folks, and can do what need's doing when the time comes. Real volunteers. Here. For us, not some foreign crapola worlds policeman b.s. Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary, but I have no desire to live under military rule, and I won't tolerate it for one second if it's imposed to cover up malfeasance and incompetence or worse, the likelihood of the king making a power grab for he and his buddies to take advantage of the situation and stay in power. screw it. zog

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), November 11, 1999.

You ask what the difference is between servicepeople and civilians... Ever heard of the "Uniform Code of Military Justice". While I was at Kent State in 1970 I had a calc class next door to a ROTC class. One day they played a movie which gave scenarios which the cadets had to write answers for. I remember the scenario.....You're in combat, you give an order and it is disobeyed...What do you do? Answer: Shoot the solder that disobeyed. If the order is given to fire on US citizens I'm afraid many will obey.

-- Ace (Ace@nospam.com), November 11, 1999.

ROFLMAO!

OH OH OH....LOVING IT! .... GOOD ONE, SNOOZE!

:0)

-- Ynott (Ynott@incorruptible.com), November 11, 1999.


You get the prize out of the Crackerjack box today, Snoooze. That one is priceless. If only this old head could remember all these funny things. Taz

-- Taz (Taz@aol.com), November 11, 1999.


Snooze: The name is: Al-gore.

-- curtis schalek (cschalek@earthlink.net), November 11, 1999.

Snooze, you might want to pick up a copy of Weekly World News, because for 12-13 bucks one can order a cute t-shirt that reads, "12 Senators Are Aliens!" And the photo of 12 are on it. I was looking at that choice the other day and I'm darn tempted to poke some fun at the "gobmint." Another choice is of Bill Clinton shaking hands with an alien.

To the original poster,

Martial law does not concern me. I am in SoCA and I am not game for a few to cost the area billions of dollars in damage from a tantrum. I not only want martial law if populace behavior is ill or criminal but shoot to kill orders.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 11, 1999.


Thanks to zog for the reminder. I wasn't clear, but what I meant was I trust the military more than politicians in a real democracy, i.e. one where power changes hands every few years, and new people are appointed by successive governments.

That's not the same as a TECHNICAL democracy which is de-facto ruled by one party or cabal or man. Mr Hitler came to power with 98% of the vote, remember, and even Iraq holds elections. In those cases, there's a weary pattern of sycophants being placed at the top of the military. I don't think that applies in the USA or Western Europe. In particular, the UK top brass consists of "the right sort of chap", i.e. well educated, well bred upper-middle class men. I enjoy poking fun at this sort of person in peacetime, but in a crisis, I'm damn sure I want someone in charge who has had (old-fashioned) ideas of right and wrong drilled into him from an early age.

It is probably slightly different in the USA. When I watch press conferences with military men, it strikes me that USA brass revel in the limelight, whereas Europeans tend to be more self effacing. Unlike the USA, a military career is NOT a path to political power in the UK any more, so we get men who's ambition is to serve, not to lead. That's why I'm not concerned about martial law in the UK: I strongly suspect that if it does happen, it will be over as soon as the need passes, with no complaint from the military.

Note that I'm not knocking either system, they both have good historical reasons behind them. All I am suggesting is that military men - in the USA or the UK - have a stronger sense of "duty to all" than the common or garden citizen, who is strongly oriented towards "me and mine".

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 11, 1999.


What's wrong with martial law? It is a matter of the integrity and good character of the person/administration calling for it and using it to bolster the concentration of power.

Think about it.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), November 11, 1999.


A little martial law never hurt anyone. In fact, why wait for a crisis? Let's have martial law right now. Some spit and polish for a change. Good old solid routine and discipline.

Seriously, what this converasation is missing is the fact that in the case of the "martial law" most likely to occur in America, that chain of command mapped out in detail in the Presidential Executive Orders and Presidential Decision Directives, the Prez would be in Supreme Command, NOT some general. Under the prez would be a variety of Department heads who, in their jurisdiction, would carry the authority of the President. All bureaucrats. The difference is that they would not be accountable to the people, could forbid and punish dissent, would control the media, could seize property, draft citizens for labor as well as military service, relocate populations, etc.. Not much derring-do and fine, noble qualities in that scenario. More like a Tyson's chicken farm.

-- Dr. Polymorph (Iknowmore@thanyoudo.com), November 11, 1999.



Paula,

Would you encourage martial law to reduce the possibility that there would be activities of which you might not approve?

George

-- George Valentine (georgevalentine@usa.net), November 11, 1999.


Hey, if they are going to relocate me, can I at least put in a couple of requests for places I would like to move to? *grin*

-- (cannotsay25@hotmail.com), November 11, 1999.

Robert Heinlein publish a book back in the day Called Starship Troopers. They made the movie based -loosely- on the book. The concept of government, however, in the time that the story takes place, is after a time period refered to as "The Disorders." The government of the time was made up strictly of veterans. One did not automatically get his/her franchise (right to vote that is) unless one had done military service for a period of no less than 5 years. This also precluded you from running for public office unless you served your time. This idea was founded on the concept of keeping rich, spoiled assholes like Clinton out of office. For those who disagree on this, think about it.

Do you think that the Fornicator-In-Chief would be so quick to send our troops out if he EVER had ANY idea of how shitty war and waiting for war is? How many times did Bubba, after having force-marched 12 miles at midnite, stop and begin to dig a foxhole. in the rain. in february? I don't think he ever has.(exTREme sarcasm mind you)

Somehow I think Heinlein was onto something there...or maybe its just because I'm a salty, bitter old vet and Veterans Day kinda depresses me.

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan@Yahoo.com), November 11, 1999.


The fact that Colin lives in a socialist slave state (the UK) - where there is a de facto ban on private possession of firearms, where taxes on income are as high as 90% and where a cradle-to-grave welfare state stands at the ready to change everyone's diapers if need be - should be considered when reading his remarks.

The UK is a slave state. Those who live in the UK are slaves. They are not free people. Some of them apparently would like the rest of the world to share in their situation.

How kind of them.

-- PKM (.@...), November 11, 1999.


The UK is a slave state? Gosh, I wonder if anyone told them. Do we have anyone from the UK that would like to comment on that.

-- Lurking on the sidelines (Alw@ys lurking.com), November 11, 1999.


Ummm, Billy Boy:

Go back and re-read the book. It was not SOLELY MILITARY service but both civil and military service worked, it just HAPPENED that htere was a much greater demand for bodies in the military.

Night train

-- jes a readin' ol footballer (nighttr@in.lane), November 12, 1999.


"Prove me wrong on that, and then I'll maybe start "worrying" about martial law."

You want twenty year old kids with M-16's managing your life?

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@xout.erols.com), November 12, 1999.


Lurking:

Free men own firearms. Slaves do not.

Oh, the plantation owners may indeed equip certain trusted slaves with weapons as means of having them help keep the others in line, but they do not own them, they are issued them... and they are subject to recall at the owner's pleasure.

Since the slave does not own his own labor, any money his owners care to give him can as easily be taken from him.

Finally, the owners need healthy slaves, so health care for their property is very important.

-- PKM (.@...), November 12, 1999.


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