When does the Bible permit one to take the life of another. I cannot bring myself to go to the local firing range to practice "hitting the broadside of a barn" I may be "Flamed away", but I remember the 6th Commandment, "Thou shalt not murder". What is "murder"? What about my Father who was a WWII Prisoner of War? My Step-Father who received the Purple Heart, because another human fired a gun to kill him, yet he survived that act. What about all our American Soldiers who were "ordered to kill?" in Viet Nam? Please, someone, more knowledgable in the Scripture than I, please point me to the Scripture that says I have the Right to kill another human. P.S., got snakes, where I live.

-- Nana (Nana@home.com), November 07, 1999

Answers

Hey ding dong,

It's "Thou shall not kill." Killing and murdering are two different things. You now have permission to murder.

-- (Theology@major.com), November 07, 1999.

Friend, guess the word depends on which interpertation one reads. You have not yet answered my request. I am an older person, only trying to do what is right. I will attempt to reach you, once more, "When is "Kill" and "Murder" allowed? P.S. Got snakes where I live.

-- Nana (Nana@home.com), November 07, 1999.

The twelve tribes leaving Eygpt, under Moses' leadership, wiped out entire groups of people; killing even the women and children. This is under the same God's directions that we worship today; granted the New Testament teaches the turn the other cheek philosophy. Be that as it may, I don't beleive Jehovah expects you to let the godless run over you without attempting to protect yourself and yours.

-- DGBennett (bennett1@peachnet.net), November 07, 1999.

If you take a look at the next few chapters of Exodus (after chapter 20 where the ten commandments is found) you will find a reasonably sophistocated set of distinctions that clarify the commandment not to kill. There is obviously a right to self defense. Read it.

Dispite some pacifist attempts to prove otherwise, the principle is not abrogated in the New Testament.

-- Gore (BWGore@msn.com), November 07, 1999.

The Bible prohibits murder. No where does it prohibit "self-defense." David killed those who had kidnapped his wives and families with God's help and approval.

1SA 30:1 "Then it happened when David and his men came to Ziklag on the third day, that the Amalekites had made a raid on the Negev and on Ziklag, and had overthrown Ziklag and burned it with fire; 1SA 30:2 and they took captive the women {and all} who were in it, both small and great, without killing anyone, and carried {them} off and went their way. 1SA 30:3 And when David and his men came to the city, behold, it was burned with fire, and their wives and their sons and their daughters had been taken captive. 4 Then David and the people who were with him lifted their voices and wept until there was no strength in them to weep. 5 Now David's two wives had been taken captive, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess and Abigail the widow of Nabal the Carmelite. 6 Moreover David was greatly distressed because the people spoke of stoning him, for all the people were embittered, each one because of his sons and his daughters. But David strengthened himself in the Lord his God.

7 Then David said to Abiathar the priest, the son of Ahimelech, "Please bring me the ephod." So Abiathar brought the ephod to David. 8 And David inquired of the Lord, saying, "Shall I pursue this band? Shall I overtake them?" And He said to him, "Pursue, for you shall surely overtake them, and you shall surely rescue all." 9 So David went, he and the six hundred men who were with him, and came to the brook Besor, {where} those left behind remained. 10 But David pursued, he and four hundred men, for two hundred who were too exhausted to cross the brook Besor, remained {behind.}

16 And when he had brought him down, behold, they were spread over all the land, eating and drinking and dancing because of all the great spoil that they had taken from the land of the Philistines and from the land of Judah. 17 And David slaughtered them from the twilight until the evening of the next day; and not a man of them escaped, except four hundred young men who rode on camels and fled."

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), November 07, 1999.

Its useless to waste time on people who can't even get the kill/murder thing right: "Thou shalt not kill" is actually "Thou shalt not murder" in the original Greek --- the translations like King James were mot exactly correct.

And people are permitted to defend themselves --- I would have to repeat the whole Bible here --- why don't you just look almost anywhere and its abundantly clear and specific, unless you just don't want to accept it.

-- Jon Johnson (narnia4@usa.net), November 07, 1999.

Nana, I can't cite references but the notion of a "just war" has long been established in Christianity. This sanctions killing but not murdering. Common sense instructs us to protect ourselves and our families, with deadly force if necessary. No doubt the Quakers don't see it this way.

-- Lars (not@aol.com), November 07, 1999.

Jon -- it is not necessary for you to get an "attitude" with Nana. Undoubtably she is asking a sincere question. Just answer the question and be nice about it.

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), November 07, 1999.

Well! Hell's Bells, and THANK YOU, D.G. BENNETT! Interesting to note that no matter how sincere my post was, it was ignored for those who are worried about the generators (noisy, gas things) I was there once (short time). If we don't have electricity,( I will bore myself). I have been shown the wisdom that say I will not live ( this life) forever. No matter how much I jog, or work out, or give up smoking, etc. Thank you for a Human response.

-- Nana (Nan@home.com), November 07, 1999.

Are you looking for a commandment that says: "Go and kill he whom threatens to harm thee, so saith the lord"?

If so, it's nowhere in scripture.

However, there are myriad examples and principles outlined in scripture where God commanded Israel to destroy utterly the nations that had been judged and found wicked while they were in Canaan. God even went so far as to command they kill all the animals, women and infants (little ones) in the land of those they were commanded to conquer. Many of these nations were engaged in sacrificing their children to idols (ie: Molech) by slowly burning them to death, and many of these nations had directly threatened Israel.

Jeremiah 48:10 talks about those who would be cursed because they would not put blood on their swords of an enemy that attacked the nation of Israel.

But moreover, the bible is repleat with stories of the need to defend and protect your family. In the New testament, those that do not provide (including defense) for their own households are worse than an infidel (1 Tim. 5:8)

Thou Shalt Not Kill is a mistranslation in that context. It is properly translated from the Hebrew to: You Shall Not Murder, which is what Jesus quoted when expounding on the Law by saying "You have heard it said 'thou shall not murder'. But I tell you that if one of you is angry without cause at your brother, you have already commited murder.

The Creator would not expect the temples of His Spirit to be annihilated by simply offering yourself as a sacrifice. Christ has already done that for mankind, you need not offer yourself in the same manner.

Get a Concordance, a Bible Dictionary and a good Bible, and crack open the covers and study for yourself.

YOU need to discover the answers to your questions. Not have someone else provide you with their interpretations. Mine included.

This way your beliefs will be rooted in rock and not sand.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), November 07, 1999.

Thank you, for your kind guidance/answers. p.s. Got snakes?, darned scared of them too!

-- Nana (Nana@home.com), November 07, 1999.

Ex.22:2 grants permission to kill a person breaking in.

Luke 22:36 Jesus tells His disciples that after He is gone, they would need to sell their mantle and buy a sword (or weapon).

Romans 13 gives the State the right to execute lawbreakers. If we allow the police to execute, and the military to protect us, why do you feel it is a sin for you to protect yourself?

-- Scribe (....@....), November 07, 1999.

Nana, I don't know what your hangup is about killing when you actually do it on a daily basis when you have a hamburger or steak or Kentucky fried. Or don't animals count? "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly that and it includes animals!

-- old fart is ready for y2k (oldfartis@readyfory2k.com), November 07, 1999.

If you read the chapters following the listing of the ten commandments in Exodus 20, you will notice that capital punishment is not only allowed, but demanded. There is also a difference between warfare and the deliberate killing of a non-threatening person.

Killing an intruder was permitted if he invaded a dwelling at night, but was not allowed in the daytime, unless he was attacking the person.

There is honest debate among Christians as to whether we are permitted to kill in self-defense. Romans 13 affirms that civil government has the right to bear the sword - probably the authority to execute capital punishment. If a Christian is in that position he would have the right to take a life under some circumstances. A Christian policeman would be required to possible take a life to protect the innocent under rare circumstances.

The commandment is not speaking of war. Or prohibiting killing animals for food or protection.

In the end, each of us will have to live, or die, with the consequences of our decision in this matter. You will find no Scripture saying that you have a "right to kill." But neither will you find a requirement that you be passive in the face of threats to you or your family.

No pat answers here, but please do continue your study.

regards,

gene

-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), November 07, 1999.

Nana, I don't know what your hangup is about killing. You do it all the time on a daily basis when you bite into a hamburger or steak or Kentucky fried. Or don't animals matter? Thou shalt not kill means exactly that and it includes animals.

-- old fart is ready for y2k (oldfartis@readyfory2k.com), November 07, 1999.

Look at it like this. In a situation where an intruder is truly threatening your life, or the life of your child, and assuming you have the means to resist, your choices are these:

To do nothing, allowing yourself to be killed. Is this not, in effect, a suicidal act?

To do nothing, allowing your child to be killed. Would this not be forsaking your parental responsibility?

To act ineffectively, with the same results as above.

To resist with sufficient force to eliminate the threat.

This is not a theological argument. It simply describes a range of options limited by circumstance. Your choice among them must be your own.

It may be hard to determine how real such a threat may be. In such situations, you will hardly ever have much time to work that out.

Of course, if you don't have the means to resist, the question is already decided.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), November 07, 1999.

Nana What's the deal with snakes?

-- (what@me.slimy?), November 07, 1999.

If you know where the snakes are... and the bad guy doesn't well... If you make a trap using snakes as the means to attack intruders and they die from the bites you have killed.

Nana, that is what I called my great-grandmother. Can you ensure that children and the innocent won't fall into your trap? If you can ensure that only bad guys fall into the trap, by all means make it with the reservation that you WILL be prosecuted if there is a functional government and you catch someone, whether they are a bad guy or not.

Nana, You have the right to defend others. That is established clearly in many places in scripture. As for self, I think you also have that right. INVAR spoke the most profound sentence IMO in this thread, "YOU need to discover the answers to your questions. Not have someone else provide you with their interpretations. Mine included."

Snake traps are a bad idea... think on other lines. Get and keep handy a .410 or 20Ga shotgun with a load of #1 buck or bb's in it at all times. This is FAR more selective than a snake trap. It is quicker, cleaner, and more justifable because of the evidence the "perp" will have to leave if you have to use it.

Shoot it a few times to get a feel for it. Then hang it above the front door or stand it beside the front door. At night take it into your room. Remember when you kill another person, the hardest part is living with it afterwards. Never-the-less, DO NOT HESITATE once you honestly perceive the need to use it. Things happen quickly when guns are drawn. You can't see if the other person is pulling the trigger or not, if he hesitates, he is lost. If you hesitate, you are lost. In other words, you hesitate, you die.

Still, I personally would rather die than catch a child in a pit of rattlers, corals or whatever you have there... You might use the venom of a snake in a trap. If you were able to reasonably ensure that no innocent person could trigger the trap... NTL, as above, you are liable for damages...

-- (...@.......), November 07, 1999.

The Bible says turn the other cheek. This is after the first has een struck against your will. If a solder compells you to carry his stuff a mile, go with him 2. Never says that we are to volunteer to go the first. Turn the other cheek deals with revenge over an action that has already occurred. Once you have to give something, we are to give it willingly. This does not say to me that we should not avoid or prevent being slapped or enslaved or robbed. Nor does it say if someone kills 1 child offer them the second. The old testament says that if a thief breaks in and in the dark and confusion you kill him defending your own possessions and people, there is no blood guilt. If you wait and execute him later, that appears to be murder. The Bible says that God is the father of the fatherless. Until that chilling phrase describes my younguns, I am both blessed and burdenned with that responsibility that compells me to do many things that I otherwise would not need to concern myself with.

-- tree (thetrees@bigfoot.com), November 07, 1999.

Do not look to the Bible to make a decision for you that should be made based on what you feel in your soul. You will know when the time comes, and just do what feels right.

Keep in mind that "killing" and "murder" are words and ideas created by man, and so is the guilt associated with them. When another person's physical actions threaten your physical existence, you may be feel it is best to take away their physical life, but you will never take away their spiritual life. Spiritual life is eternal.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 08, 1999.

Trust in God, and He will direct your actions at that moment, if it ever happens. Remember, we have been told by Him to not worry about tomorrow, that there is enough to worry about today!

-- Vern (bacon17@ibm.net), November 08, 1999.

underline off.

Don't look to the Bible - look to the penal code. It varies by state as to whether you can just shoot an intruder.

As a practical matter, if you are sincerely defending yourself, a jury will not convict you.

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), November 08, 1999.

Psalm:91

read several times a day! Is everyones best defense!

-- d.b. (dciinc@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

Old fart, have you ever read I Timothy 4:3 & 4? (Amplified Bible)

"Who forbid people to marry and teach them to abstain from certain kinds of foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and have an increasingly clear knowledge of the truth. For everything God has created is good, and nothing is to be thrown away or refused if it is received with thanksgiving.

-- (check@it.out), November 08, 1999.

OLD FART--are you a bible "believer" or just "quoter" when it suits your own purposes. when you read scripture you have to read it in the context of the whole bible. GOD CLEARLY GAVE US ANIMALS TO EAT AND TO WEAR FOR CLOTHING. look in the first book--shouldn't make you have to read too much. THEN HE EVEN ALLOWED THE SACRIFICE OF ANIMALS TO SHOW THAT ALL SIN LEADS TO DEATH. visual reminder but nonetheless resulted in the death of the animals. he told us to be good stewards of the earth and its resources which I believe means being humane in the treatment of how we kill animals and not to kill them for the wrong purposes and without mercy.

if you choose to be a vegan that is fine but don't use god as your reason. quite a bit of the focus on animal rights these days is right from the pagan ideas of worshipping the creation/not the creator.

NANA--i also was afraid and struggled with the whole issue of self- defense. i had prayed about it for a long time. i had a county policeman come in and do a security assessment of my home. one of his recommendations was to get a firearm. when you hear the real statistics (not the politically correct garbage you see in the media) on home defense/firearms/how much law enforcement can protect you, it is a real eye-opener and it was that that helped me make my decision. get in touch with the NRA or call a local gun range/shop and take their introductory course on handguns before you consider what type of firearm to get and how to make it safe for your home/family. don't wait. time is short.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 08, 1999.

oh, i forgot nana. i am a believer. i love psalm 91 and ultimately i think god is my real refuge and all my self-denfense plans could be for not if god is not in them. but i also know that god doesn't expect us to be sitting ducks. the new testament has a reference to turning the other cheek but i think in that same book, jesus goes in and clears out the temple of the moneychangers in a rather forceful way. THERE ARE CERTAIN RULES TO HOME DEFENSE--YOU DON'T GO CHASING THE BAD PEOPLE DOWN. HOWEVER, AS THE POLICE HAVE SAID, IF A PERSON COMES INTO YOUR HOUSE AND YOU (I WILL HOPEFULLY TAKE MY KIDS TO THE SAFE ROOM) TELL THEM YOU ARE ARMED AND THEY STILL COME AFTER YOU-- THEY ARE REALLY BAD PEOPLE AND IT IS EITHER YOUR LIFE OR THEIRS.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 08, 1999.

Nana, I don't know what your hangup is about killing. You do it all the time on a daily basis when you bite into a hamburger or steak or Kentucky fried. Or don't animals matter? Thou shalt not kill means exactly that and it includes animals.

Killing animals for food and/or fur is NOT murder, you moronic animal rights whacko!!

-- People Eating Tasty Animals (alibi@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

Nana,

The preachers should be warning people to arm themselves and prepare for problems. Israel was always defended by what we call the Militia, the average Joe.

Following is leveled at preachers (prophets) who tell people to be pacifist, or simply do not understand what the Bible is about and think that Jesus is a whimp...(Exo 15:3 KJV) "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

(Ezek 13:2 KJV) "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;"

(Ezek 13:3 KJV) "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!"

(Ezek 13:4 KJV) "O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts."

(Ezek 13:5 KJV) "Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD."

(Ezek 13:6 KJV) "They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word."

Israel was prophesied to become a Great Nation and a Great Company of Nations. (Gen 35:10 KJV) "And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel."

(Gen 35:11 KJV) "And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"

(Gen 48:19 KJV) "And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."

It is US!

We win!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), November 08, 1999.

as another example, look at the original versions of His words in the Garden right before he's crucified: The original is "He who lives by the sword...shall die by the sword." and is very definitely and specifically NOT the same as "He who uses the sword.."

"Living" by the sword is to make one's money by robbery, theft, murder and assault: anything from the Soviet NKVD/KGB to the Gestapo to the mob to simple home burglaries. "Using" the sword is preventing those assaults legally and morally: as police officer, an army or navy member fighting in a "just war", or as a homeowner defending one's life.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 08, 1999.

Discussion is interesting; BUT; there are so many versions of THE BOOK and so many chapters excluded for political reasons one must approach conclusions thoughtfully.

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

"Turn the other cheek" was written only in context of "brethren to brethren" and typically when discussing doctrine.

You have a DUTY to defend yourself, and if others are under your care, even moreso.

It's no wonder that Christianity is in such trouble with answers above being passed off for what is in the Scripture, (with the exception of INVAR's answer). The "old fart" with his peta spiel was the pits. You need to open the book and find out what is in there for yourself... NOBODY will stand in that day and be excused by saying, "well, my pastor said..." You must "prove all things," not jump on every breeze that blows or you'll just be whipped by the wind. The answers are there, you just have to ferret them out. You need a Concordance to know the languages and their meanings, (Young's for the young, Strong's for the Strong). All I see around me is "spiritual laziness" and this thread proves that might handily. This admonishment is in hope that you get off your seat and READ THE BOOK!

A common misconception is that Christ was some sort of "peace, love, sandal-wearing hippie," Christ took a whip to the money-changers and drove them out. He pointed fingers and named names. He was a tremendous threat to TPTB of His day, and yes, he said to arm yourself. "A strong man, fully armed, is safe when the thief comes."

Nana... It's good that you are concerned for such, but anyone that provides not for their own has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. If your own need protection, who shall provide?

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), November 09, 1999.