Very interesting article about why Waco happened.

http://www.zolatimes.com/V3.41/waco_saddam.html

Sorry, but do not know how to link.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Waco and America's Saddam by Dr. Jack Wheeler In March of 1993, I was the keynote speaker at a conference of business and civic leaders held in Indianapolis. One of those attending was a federal judge named Joe (its best not to mention his last name). He seemed a nice, decent fellow who not once hinted that (as I had been informed by the organizer of the conference) he was on the short list of candidates to be the new Director of the FBI. The current FBI Director, William Sessions, had announced his attention to resign as soon as the recently-inaugurated Bill Clinton found a replacement. Joe and I sat together at lunch and the conversation was pleasant  until someone at the table brought up Waco. The ATF had assaulted the Davidian church complex a month earlier, and the standoff was ensuing with the final holocaust a month away. When I asked Joe what he thought of what was going on at Waco, his entire demeanor and body language changed, his face turned purple with rage, and he announced: "Ill tell you what the FBI should do. Those people [the Davidians] killed Federal Agents. We should go in there and kill every last one of them." Someone responded, "There are children in there, Joe." Joe brushed the comment aside with a wave of his hand. "You dont understand. No one can get away with killing Federal Agents. They all deserve to be killed in return."

Joe was passed over in favor of Louis Freeh, but he exemplified the mindset not just of the FBI but of so many in law enforcement in general. As anyone who has made the mistake of arguing with a police officer giving them a traffic ticket understands, the most heinous crime anyone can commit, more evil and depraved than child molestation, is Contempt of Cop. You know the joke: a conservative is a liberal whos been mugged; a liberal is a conservative whos been arrested. Smart-mouth a cop and youre asking for a world of grief. Fight back and defend yourself from police action, no matter what the action is, and your life is in danger. This is what happened at Waco. The Davidians tried to defend themselves from an armed ATF raid, set up as a pure publicity stunt to better argue for increased funding. That the raid had a flimsy pretext and was botched was irrelevant to the Federal law enforcement community, however. No matter how and why, Federal Agents were killed and revenge had to be taken. The FBI man in charge of the siege and final death raid of April 19, Richard Rogers, thought exactly like Joe.

It is important to grasp, as we focus upon Waco anew, that what happened was no accident, that the Davidians were killed on purpose in an act of revenge by the American government. And it is important to know just how they were killed, that the method of their killing was as grisly and evil as anything perpetrated by Saddam Hussein.

The poison gas pumped into the Davidian church complex by the FBI is a chemical warfare agent known as CS (o-chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile). It is a solid in the form of white crystals. The FBI dissolved the CS powder in an organic solvent so they could liquid spray it in to the buildings. A lot of attention has been paid to the horror of CS, but not much on the solvent. Its called methylene chloride. Ever bought paint remover and noticed the label warning to use it "only in a well-ventilated area"? Thats because it contains MC.

The effects of MC are exactly the same as those of chloroform if you use twice as much of it. When a person breathes MC (or chloroform at half the concentration) vapor he or she first becomes irritable. Second, they lose their coordination and judgement, while their vision becomes blurred. Third, they become paranoid and hyper-excitable. Fourth, they experience auditory and visual hallucinations. Fifth, they lapse into muscular paralysis and unconsciousness. It is this fifth stage that caused surgeons to use chloroform as the first anesthetic in the 19th century. But doctors switched to ether because of uncontrollable behavior of the patients going through the first four stages  and because of a last sixth stage. If you use only about two times as much chloroform as it takes to render someone unconscious, they suffer respiratory paralysis, stop breathing, and die. It is the same with MC.

The FBI cut off the electricity to the Davidians and knew all they had for light were kerosene lamps. Yet they sprayed into their buildings hundreds of pounds of a poison gas which makes people stumble around like theyre drunk with no coordination, with blurry vision, hallucinating and excitable: A guarantee that kerosene lamps would be knocked over and fires started. In the presence of fire, MC vapor decomposes into hydrogen chloride, which has the same effect on any moisture-laden area of the body as sulfur mustard gas used in World War I: excruciating searing pain in the eyes, the mucous lining of the nose, and the lungs. When CS is burned, it produces hydrogen cyanide, the same gas used to execute prisoners on Death Row.

During the Iran-Iraq war, Saddam Hussein discovered the most effective chemical warfare agent was a combination of sulfur mustard gas with hydrogen cyanide, which he used in artillery shells to slaughter thousands of Iranians. It was in effect this same combination that the FBI used to slaughter 87 men, women, and children in Waco. The question is: who authorized the CS/MC combination? CS is not normally dissolved into a solution. Who knew about MC and could order it to be a solvent for CS? Sit down, folks, and hold on tight: Janet Reno has a Masters Degree in Chemistry from Cornell University. Cornell has a very good chemistry department. MC is used as an organic solvent for many experiments. There is no question Reno would be very familiar with it, and have been warned of its dangers by her professors. Janet Reno is Americas Saddam Hussein.

Congressman Bob Barr (R-GA) has a coroners photograph taken of one of the Davidian victims entitled "Doe #57." It is of a little girl around five or six years old, her charred body burned beyond recognition and twisted in the ghastly rictus contortion typical of subjection to hydrogen cyanide. If there is any justice, the truth will finally come to light in the current Danforth and Burton investigations, Janet Reno and the other key perpetrators of the Waco murders will be tried and found guilty of mass homicide, and sentenced to death in the gas chamber through inhalation of burning CS/MC gas. It is only appropriate that they suffer the same fate as the children of Waco.

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Dr. Jack Wheeler, often credited with the "Reagan Doctrine" for bringing down the Soviet Union, writes for the publication Strategic Intelligence.

-30-

from The Laissez Faire City Times, Vol 3, No 41, October 18, 1999

-- chicken farmer (chicken-farmer@ y2k.farm), October 20, 1999

Answers

There are many unanswered questions about the Waco holocaust that still linger such as........why was CS gas used on women and children when it's BANNED IN INT'L WARFARE BY THE GENEVA CONVENTION!!??..... well over a 1/4 of the people in that church were BLACK! WHERE WAS JESSE JACKSON, AL SHARPTON, JOHN CONYERS DURING THIS TIME? Why were they so silent about this hideous event while always carrying the torch for every idiotic, liberal, goofy cause they can latch on to. .......what happened to the film recording all the events by the TV camera crew from a local station that was stationed inside the Davidian complex?.........why was a helicopter gunship needed to attack the house before the agents arrived in the cattle cars?..... Did Clinton revoke Posse Commitatus prior to the insertion of Delta Force members into the fiasco? (This is alleged in the soon to be released movie "Waco: A new Revelation" by Mike McNulty)......where will the next Waco be? Another one?.....you can count on it!

-- prayforamerica (jb40@hotmail.net), October 20, 1999.

I thank God for the web. Not because it informs me about what is going on, or because it informs me about how shabbily our government treats us (my father died from Hairy Cell Leukemia, there was only one way to get that), but because it continually reminds me of how easily people can be misinformed by the misinformed.

CS Gas is used in training on a routine basis. One can practically eat the damn stuff without suffering long term side effects. How do I know that? Well, I was once a soldier. You can literally learn to stand in an enclosed tent with high concentrations of the stuff and not panic and find your way out without any ill effects at all. The recommend method of dispersion in training is over a hot air source or open flame. Sometimes it burns, when it does it doesn't produce a damn thing but ash. This whole long analysis of "What happened at waco" is just so much bull crap.

You want to know how that fire started? Go dig up every piece of archived tape you can locate because the press has had everything they needed to know for a LONG time. You watch ALL the tape you can get your hands on. Pay particular attention to the tanks. You will see one crushing one end of the complex. Just keep watching and you will suddenly realize that the fire started where the tank had just driven over the building. It's right there on the video that was released to the public. The damn fire started when a freakin' tank drove over a gas (natural gas) line at the end of the complex. Just take a look at the tapes. The fire happened becase a bunch of stupid assed "city" type agents tried to run a military operation using soldiers who were equally stupid about how dangerous the very equipmemt they were operating actually is when you drive it over a damn house. Occam's Razor, "The simplest explaination is usually the correct explaination."

Yes I agree that I personally heard real live federal agents say we should kill every damn person in the compound -- NONE of them were named "Judge Joe". I also believe that such comments are so much ventilation of anger done amoung people who suffer much on a daily basis at the hands of men like David Koresh. Such was a man who should have been no man's idol. Yet this ass wants you to hate your country, hate your government, hate federal agents (who for the most part are just normal people like yourself), and cry in your beer for David Koresh and the children he was molesiting. I can cry for any molested child but I have to say I take great pleasure seeing a child molester executed, although that is NOT AT ALL WHAT HAPPENED AT WACO. For my money if you want someone to be suspicious of, the fellow who dropped this question is a good starter candidate. He is either sick (mentally ill) or subversive. My guess is the former.

What happened at Waco? A bunch of really pissed off Feds screwed up really big time. In particular they made the mistake of involving the friggin' military in a job that belonged to law enforcement. The Constitution cleary protects the citizenry from the military. Dragging them in at Waco was a truly STUPID idea that some puke in Washington thought might keep some ATF agents from getting killed. It is that simple. Hell everyone in DoD (at that time) was scrambling for a new "mission" remember? The "Wall" had only been down a short while. DoD probably BEGGED for an opportunity to show how they could help out.

Look, Waco is done. This country needs to pull together and stand beside the Constitution, go to the ballot box and repair the damage that neglecting the ballot box has done. It does not need to rehash old wounds caused by incompetent men who should have never been allowed the authority they now have. Neither does it need devisive, delusional, conspiracy theorists who find conspiracy where there was none. Waco proper wasn't a conspiracy. It was a total SCREW UP. What happened later (the whole FBI/Justice white wash) might have had conspiracy elements to it, I would not have any idea.

I guess I am ventilating here... for that I am truly sorry. I am an old man who served and would have served again BUT FOR WHAT SHE HAS BECOME BECAUSE THE DAMNED STUPID POPULATION WHICH DOES NOT REALIZE THAT VOTES ARE MUCH MORE POWERFULL AND MUCH LESS PAINFULL THAN THE ALTERNATIVE. Now it is to God damed late... and we have to deal with idiots like the one above, in what will soon become a difficult and perhaps hostile enviromnent because he and people of his ilk had the mouth to complain but did not have the heart to vote...

Shit One last thing, before I get bludgeoned about the head and shoulders, there are a WHOLE bunch of things I wonder about that have happened since that time. I just have real difficulty accepting that David Koresh and a house full of children were murdered because the government was MAD at them.

There are so many who would tell you that your are disenfranchised. You are not disenfranchised. You have abdicated your right to influence the government of this country and NOW YOU WANT THE REST OF US TO FEEL SORRY FOR YOU. Give me a freakin' break.

-- Michael Erskine (osiris@urbanna.net), October 21, 1999.

Michael. I wish to God you would take time to read VOTESCAM,The Stealing of America by James and Kenneth Collier. Please be advised as to just exactly WHO is programming the voting dcomputers in your district. Thanks, Betty Alice

-- Betty Alice (Barn266@aol.com), October 21, 1999.

Sir, you are absolutely correct. But, now that I think of it, we put republicans in charge of Congress in 94, how much has that accomplished? Which candidate to vote for? Pick the one who wants to take away someone else's rights and spend more on programs you like. Because they ALL want to spend and limit some rights. How's this for a solution: change the law so that if the total votes do not equal more than 50% of eligable voters the position is not filled. i.e. 49.9999999% of eligable voters vote then no one is elected. This would insure that the candidates stand for what the true majority of voters want and better candidates would be selecteed to run.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), October 21, 1999.

I Agree with you Micheal...Typical fed thing...things went from SNAFU to TARFU and straight to my favorite, FUBAR. Hopefully it never happens again...

-- Another ole' Vet, Billy Boy (Rakkasan@Yahoo.com), October 21, 1999.

If you want a different perspective on how truly screwed up the rule of law has become in regards to the Waco incident, one only needs to look at the various federal laws regarding firearms. After all, this was an ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco and FIREARMS; not Families) raid. Allegations of child molestation never came forward, to the best of my knowledge, until after the FBI had the Davidians surrounded. (Sort of like the typical Clinton spin/smear campaign) Every time I hear this child molestation crap spouted, I want to puke. Even if this was an accurate allegation, this was not the proper agency to handle the incident (try the Texas Social Services and County Sheriff) and certainly not an appropriate manner (Black clad ninjas toting MP-5 submachine guns). David Koresh deserved his day in court, and, if found guilty, would certainly have been deserving of the fate he received.

No folks, the ATF was there because they believed there were illegal automatic weapons in the possession of the Davidians. Funny how this seems to have fallen into the cracks. Heres where the federal laws get interesting:

1) The National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) established a $200 federal tax each time a machine gun is transferred to a private citizen or a private citizen modifies a semi-automatic firearm to become a machine gun. Therefore, when you answer to a federal court for having an illegal machine gun, you are technically tried for tax evasion. After all, if you had paid the tax, the machine gun is legal from the federal viewpoint. (Interesting side note: Apparently, at that time, legislators actually felt bound by the constitution. They found no powers to ban such firearms, but a clear power to tax.)

2) In the 1980s, another law was passed restricting private ownership of machine guns to anything manufactured before May of 1986. In other words, if you want to convert a semi-automatic firearm to a machine gun and you pay the tax, it will be returned to you.

If the ATF fears were founded, the Davidians were guilty of not paying a tax they were not allowed to pay. An Orwellian idea, is it not! Furthermore, consider if this was an appropriate response to the true charges. I wonder how many people on this forum have been creative enough on their tax returns and have benefited by $200 or more. Perhaps we should send 50 machine gun toting ninjas to their homes. After all, its a more serious crime since you are actually allowed to pay that tax.

-- Chris TIsone (c_tisone@hotmail.com), October 21, 1999.

ATF agents were killed, the ATF was routed. They could not let that stand without making an example of the Davidians. It is that simple. Don't you think people will think twice before defying the Feds now knowing that every man, women and child will be killed? The nature of power has not changed significantly since the Romans or the Mongols. Submit or die. I am not suprised at the reported attitude of this Federal Judge.

-- DB Cooper (dbcooper@somewhere.else), October 21, 1999.

Re voting: There are not enough conscious and intelligent people, numerically or percentagewise, to make a difference even if they ALL voted. Stupidity rules!

-- A (A@AisA.com), October 21, 1999.

prayforamerica,

Don't put John Conyers in that group...ha REAMED OUT Reno at a congressional hearing right afterwards.

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It's ALL going away in January.com), October 21, 1999.

Micheal

You said "You want to know how that fire started? Go dig up every piece of archived tape you can locate because the press has had everything they needed to know for a LONG time. You watch ALL the tape you can get your hands on. Pay particular attention to the tanks. You will see one crushing one end of the complex. Just keep watching and you will suddenly realize that the fire started where the tank had just driven over the building. It's right there on the video that was released to the public. The damn fire started when a freakin' tank drove over a gas (natural gas) line at the end of the complex. Just take a look at the tapes."

I don't know what tape you were watching, but what ever you saw ignite wa not a natural gas line. The Davidians home had propane. You can see the five big tanks of it in the inside perimiter of the building. Perhaps this is just picking nits, but when you convey any information like this you must realize that you are trying to overcome the full weight of the mainstream media. Any inaccuracy could sink your credibility.

DB

You said " ...the ATF was routed. "

The ATF agents there actually ran out of bullets. Had the Davidians really want to ambush them, they would have never made it out of the trailers. Instead the Davidians tried to get a cease fire. This was not achieved until the ATf just plain ran out of ammunition. Only twelve rounds were handed back in from the team of over eighty agents.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 21, 1999.

Hmmmmn. Repeating the "any excuse to kill people (Koresh)" trick by "sound-biting" the "child molestation theory" repeatedly.

What is your proof of this behaviour? Who started the story? Who has confirmed it - now, then, or earlier? (Certainly the Davidians could have been tried in court - certainly they cannot be considered convicted and guilty of the crime, only accused of it - they had already been murdered before they could be tried .... sort of like the Communistics did.)

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), October 21, 1999.

As far as natural gas or propane. My money is on you. I expect this was propane. If you are building a compound you are going to select that which makes you more self sufficient.

There is any amount of speculation we can get into even after you look at the tapes. What I saw was a tank drive over the corner of the building and then back off of it. Before tank was twenty feet from the building the fire was clearly visible, where the tank had been, in the video. This was broadcast on national TV sometime back.

Did the tank start the fire of drop an incendiary? Could it be something as simple as a hot headed tanker with a thermite grenade, sure. I am not absolving anyone of anything but I believe the system is vastly more incompetent than we actually realize.

In order to ascribe all of this to a huge and evil conspiracy we have to have dozens of duplicitous federal agents and soldiers in half a dozen agencys.

As to the mantra of child molestation... agreed that was not discussed before the assault. It probably wasn't even known at that point. What happened at Waco was at the very least negligence which resulted in manslaughter. Yes I do believe someone should have been punsihed. I also believe that Koresh was not the sort of person to make a hero. Sorry that I offend some. I just can't look up to a man who would lead his people into such a situation in the first place. I am convinced by the first hand testamony of the children involved that Koresh was molesting the girls. Sorry again if that offends.

I have never thought much of the ATF. I do believe if they had wanted Koresh they would have had a much better time of it taking him in town or on the road between town and his compound. That in an of itself suggests poor planning or another motive. ATF was also behind the initial problems at Ruby Ridge. What I observe from these two incidents it that ATF is exceptionally good at starting these little scenarios but not worth a damn at taking responsibility for handling the professionally. They are also excellent at later pointing the finger.

-- Michael Erskine (osiris@urbanna.net), October 21, 1999.

propane must be pipes into adjacent building to be useful as heat, in stoves, or even air conditioning. Propane 9in the tank itself) is useless unless it is hooked up.

Also, the reader above discussed not the standard CS (used - also as correctly noted) in military training on havier weight, already conditioned men and women (much different than being used in the middle of a chilren's bedroom!), but rather the "mix" or "solution" of CS into the solvent.

The mix (and combustion of the solvent) - is what may be particularly hideous.

Promoting those (in the FBI and in the Delta Force) who ran this episode is equally hideous.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), October 21, 1999.

--- eyes

Even if the reason they left was that they ran out of ammunition, they didn't look very heroic running away dragging their wounded and dead. That's the image that could not be allowed to endure. The Feds control is precarious. Imagine what would have happened if the Davidians had all come out that same day, in front of the cameras and media, bringing their own wounded and dead, submitted to arrest and subsequent trial. Now strrrreeetch your imagination (I find this part difficult) and imagine that they received a fair trial exposing the ATF's bumbling and grandstanding. Where would that put the authority of the Feds today? I remember reading a supposed quote by Clinton regarding the killing of Special Forces in Somalia, something along the lines of If they kill one of ours we should kill one hundred of theirs. I don't think that a distinction is made as to foreign or domestic cases. It is quite clear that the Feds believe they are a ruling class and we are the populace to be ruled. Any resistance will be made an example of.

-- Dan Cooper (dcooper@somewhere.else), October 21, 1999.

I have always wondered, since about a dozen or two Davidians walked out of the compound in the days preceding the assault, why they did not send out the children? There was no danger in that tactic - none of the people who left the compound were harmed in any way, and children would not have been prosecuted for any crimes.

The only reason for Koresh to have kept the kids inside was to use them as a human shield. As a father, that sickens me.

All that notwithstanding, put me in the camp that says this was a colossal cop fuckup - they should have stationed a patrol car between the compound and the town and nabbed Mr. Koresh at their convenience.

JZ

-- Jeff Zurschmeide (zursch@cyberhighway.net), October 21, 1999.

prayforamerica; You asked a question about the video tapes of the standoff and the fires at Waco. You asked where are these tapes ?? I can quess where ? But first let me ask a question. How many DEA offices are there and where??? How close is Waco to Oklahoma DEA/FBI office ? How would you get rid of evidence of wrong doing especially if your group screwed up??? If your a Federal Agent ??? You'd put in a federal building and then blow it up and inciderate the film and documents concerning the standoff...

-- Furie (furieart@dnet.net), October 21, 1999.