Mr. Hero saviour wimped out when it was his time to die. He ordered all the kids to do it, and then said he wasn't ready. His second in command had to put a bullet in his head.

"Col. Rawlings said he then heard Mr. Koresh tell his chief lieutenant, Steve Schneider, that he "was not ready to die, that God wanted him to continue his work."

"Steve Schneider told him, 'You're not going to get away with this. You will go through with this. Look around you. Look around you at all you've caused,' " Col. Rawlings said. "Then we heard more gunshots."

"Mr. Koresh's unarmed body was later found lying near Mr. Schneider's. Autopsies determined that Mr. Koresh had been shot once in the center of his forehead, and Mr. Schneider put an assault rifle in his own mouth and killed himself."

http://www.dallasnews.com/specials/waco/1008waco1colonel.htm

-- @ (@@@.@), October 08, 1999

Answers

sounds like a last ditch gubmint spin that will appeal to EMOTION

which is what they always do...

-- fooledagain (yeah@right.com), October 08, 1999.

That's possible I guess, that this Col. Rodney L. Rawlings is just another Olly North for the Waco coverup. I would normally think that to be the case except they've got recordings from the bugging devices:

transcripts

Do you think they would go as far as to fabricate recordings and manage to get everyone else to verify that story? Hmmm...

-- @ (@@@.@), October 08, 1999.

Thank's for the link @. Should we shoot and burn all wimps now?

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), October 08, 1999.

Y2k is kidna like David Koresh on a bigger, digital scale. It will order the deaths of millions, but it itself will not want to die.

-- #2 (#2@#2.2$), October 08, 1999.

Koresh was a sick puppy anyway. The killing of Koresh himself and how that was done doesn't matter. The way the feds handled the problem has always been what bothered me about the Waco disaster. There were so many other options from start to finish.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), October 08, 1999.

6 yEARS AND THATS THE BEST THEY CANE DO , MAN ITS COLSER TO THEN THEN I THOUGHT...

-- mongo (rjcash@fred.net), October 08, 1999.

Exactly why should I beleive the FBI now? It's a matter of public record that they falsified evidence in the Randy Weaver case. Photographic evidence, in that case. So why should I beleive the audio evidence in this case?

What would happen to your credibility as a witness if you were found to have lied in a court of law?

Just asking.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), October 08, 1999.

Wait a sec. How the hell did they plant 'listening devices' in the compound? And specifically, in the room the Davidians congregated once the attack started? Oh wait, I know, those weren't *really* bullets the FBI was firing. They were specially made bugs designed to be fired from rifles, penetrate exterior walls, and then bury themselves in interior walls where they begin transmitting. Yeah, that must be it...

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), October 08, 1999.

Yes, our government made many mistakes in their involvement with the Branch Davidians but remember this basic foundation of truth: Vernon Howell was an evil person that took his followers with him to ????????

-- Truth (at@the.ready), October 08, 1999.

I wouldn't believe ANYTHING a FED says about Waco. If Koresh was having sex with underaged girls as is claimed, why didn't the Waco cops, county sheriff or Texas Rangers arrest him? Instead we get Rambette Reno"It was for the children." Yeah. We had to fry 'em to save 'em. Anyone remember that from 'Nam?

-- Marc V. Ridenour (mvridenour@cybertrails.com), October 08, 1999.

What does this have to do with Y2K? And even if it's true, what does it have to do with the fact that the BATF, the FBI and Delta Force gassed, shot, burned and murdered many innocent men, women and children at Waco? It doesn't matter what David Koresh did or didn't do, nothing excuses what our beloved government did.

-- cody (cody@y2ksurvive.com), October 08, 1999.

TECH32

Yes, the Fed's were able to plant listening devices in to the walls of the compound. I think every room was within range of listening devices. They probably planted the devices after the initial fire fight when the Davidians were negotiating withthe authorities.

Marc

Texas social workers were inspecting the compound prior to the raid. They had found no evidence of child abuse at that time. No credible evidence that child abuse was occuring at the compound was known of until Keri Jewel testified at the congressional hearings. Of course, at that time Koresh was dead and the only purpose the testimony could serve was to demonize those who the government had already killed. That testimony could have no other purpose than to dehumanize Koresh as it contributed nothing to the stated purpose of finding out what had happened during the government seige and fire. It's also important to note that the BATF has no jurisdiction over child abuse cases in Texas.

Cody

Some people feel that events at Waco shed some light on what the government is capable of doing to it's citizens during an extraordinary event. Y2K could be an extraordinary event.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 08, 1999.

Just think- if the Feds had taken care of that polygamous rascal Joseph Smith the way they did Koresh, you could get a decent drink and a hooker in Utah today.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), October 08, 1999.

R. Wright,

"Thank's for the link @. Should we shoot and burn all wimps now?"

Sorry, I generally believe most of the evil sinister government stories, but I just don't buy it this time. They've got all kinds of evidence that the Davidians themselves lit the fires and started shooting themselves.

The only thing the government is guilty of this time appears to be that they didn't want to admit that they may have heard them over the bugs talking about starting the fires. But what could they have done anyway, even if they knew he was starting fires?

If you saw you next door neighbor setting his house on fire with children inside you'd probably run in and try to save them right? But if your next door neighboor told you he was waiting inside with a gun and would kill you if you came in, well you might think twice. I really can't blame them. They tried to stop them with tear gas and it didn't work. No one in their right mind would go charging into a huge fire full of insane people with an arsenal of weapons.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 08, 1999.

They appear to be legit, but why are these transcripts just coming to light now? Why weren't they presented 6 years ago during the initial furor over the handling of the seige?

-- a (a@a.a), October 08, 1999.

a,

Number one, because they didn't want everyone to know they had bugged the place. Don't think they revealed that until now. Number two, they didn't want us to realize that they were aware that the fires were being started and they didn't go in to rescue the children. Maybe not the most heroic reaction, but personally I can't blame them. Koresh is responsible for the whole tragedy as I see it. Hope he's having fun with his new friend Lucifer.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 08, 1999.

Frankly, I have little use for our government as it so easily taxes us to death and begrudes the middle class the least little break, while giving billions to fat cat corporations. This does not however, make the government responsible for the fate of those children. The idiot parents, who were so needy that they would follow an evil huckster, calling himself Christ, bear the responsibility for their children's tragedy.

Had the government not stepped in and stopped this guy, people would have been screaming their bloody heads off about him having sex with children, and operating under false pretenses, and calling himself a savior. So I don't doubt that when it came to taking his own useless life he backed down. That's typical of his ilk. Some people are so "weak-minded" when it comes to religion, they would follow a pimp if he would declare himself a savior and spout enough scripture to dazzle the sheeple. It doesn't take brains, only bull shit to gather up a flock of the credulous and needy.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), October 08, 1999.

@

Like the sign said: "Is your church BATF approved?"

Even if the Davidians were guilty of the firearms tax violations that the ATF accused them of, and there are serious doubts that they ever were, does that justify the assault the ATF launched? The ATF admitted that they lied about drugs being involved in order to get more military hardware at the scene. They lied. No one has been punished or reprimanded or even had a harsh word spoken to them for that. Would you ever trust an employee that continually lied to you? Because that is what is going on here. The FBI, the ATF and the Justice Dept. keep getting caught lieing. They lied about whether they fired or not, they lied about whether they launched grenades, they lied about whether they fired from helicopters, they lied about whether children were being abused. Today we find out that the FBI threw flash bang grenades at them if they tried to leave and hid this fact from the Congressional investigation. You would have to be a very uncritical thinker to take their word at face value at this point. The point is not what the Davidians did or did not do after being besieged in the most despicable way and cut off from the outside world by our public servants. The federal bullies set the whole thing up so that they could get their revenge and their photo ops at the expense of a group that they figured nobody would care about. So where do you come down? Is it Ok for the federals to destroy a group of people who are no threat to anyone as long as this group is "different"? Because it sounds like that is Ok with you.

-- D B Cooper (dbcooper@somewhere.else), October 08, 1999.

Gilda, for shame!!! You don't like the things the government is doing to YOU, but it was alright to do the ultimate harm to THEM. And just when is it alright for the United States Government to assault its citizens in such a heinous manner on such pretexts? Perhaps you ought to go to www.wacomuseum.com and do some reading and "sightseeing," which should change your mind. Or perhaps just go to Timor.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 08, 1999.

@ asks: Do you think they would go as far as to fabricate recordings and manage to get everyone else to verify that story? Hmmm...

Well @, you gotta ask the big question, because productions of a false nature to sway opinion have already been uncovered in other investigations, like the TWA flight 800 crash: the following is taken from the Associated Retired Aviation Professionals website at http://twa800.com/ "The NTSB, and inexplicably the CIA, produced video simulations of the aircraft's flight path after the last secondary radar return, which is assumed to be when the initial explosion occurred. In all versions they show the aircraft climbing several thousand feet after losing the front 1/3 of the airplane. Not only is this aerodynamically impossible, it doesn't fit with available primary radar data, eyewitness reports or a simple ballistic trajectory from the last secondary radar return. The videos are clearly designed to try to explain away 96 eyewitnesses who saw a streak of light rising from the surface and intersect with Flight 800."

HA!

Sometimes ya gotta sit back in wonderment. The government truly does think we are IDIOTS. And we're doing a damn good job of proving it to them. All them government apologists and conspiracy naysayers, take A COLLECTIVE BOW!

@ excluded-rant off.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), October 08, 1999.

Gilda.

Very well put and to the core of the problem.

Elaine.

Shame on you!

-- Truth (at@the.ready), October 08, 1999.

OR, I have also wondered about the many so-called eyewitnesses to the TWA 800 streaks of light. Two things to consider here:

(1). If the aircraft was brought down by a U.S. Navy missile, someone inside would have come forth by now with proof of same.

(2). We are not the only country that monitors the world by satellite. Were this a missile firing, lots of folks that would love to ream the U.S. Military would have recorded proof of same.

BTW, are you suggesting that the thousands of eyewitnesses to spacecraft activity are to be believed? Just asking.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), October 08, 1999.

"Truth" is a Fed. He has in previous posts refered to Waco victims as "trash" that needs to be "taken out."

This is the craven assertion behind all attempts to minimize the mass murder that we paid our Government to commit at Waco. Smug bloodlust.

The Fed has lied, fabricated evidence, and destroyed their credibility. The way they are squandering their credibility confirms my belief that they do not expect to NEED credibililty in order to govern us in the future, i.e., they will govern by force.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), October 08, 1999.

'Liberty' is an idiot. I'm about as far from a 'Fed' as you can get. Like all of his other rantings, this too is pure bullshit.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), October 08, 1999.

Truth (NOT), for WHAT should I be ashamed, pray tell? That's worse than ridiculous, and shows a blindness that Liberty picks up on. Shame on you, too!!!

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 08, 1999.

I think the "Truth is Out There." We haven't yet heard the whole story, nor may we ever.

Fed Coverup? You bet!

Conspiracy? Probably not.

Waco was to be an example in its time, a basic live training excercise testing the latest SWAT tactics. But now it is touted of an example of how overkill does nothing but escalate a domestic crisis. Now I suspect (I hope) fedcops are told to examine Waco and say "this is an example of how badly we can f*** up--DO NOT REPEAT! The people involved -- cops and Davidians -- all will agree that terrible mistakes were made on both sides of the fence. Koresh did not have to act like the maniac that he did if he truly cared about the safety of those women and children. He could have surrendered peacefully and had his day in court--perhaps with a good chance of getting acquitted. On the other hand, Federal law enforcement did not have to be such belligerent, gunho killers. Yet even while they are now being subjected to Congressional scrutiny, I suspect that these agencies have purged themselves on the inside and that the guilty involved are already severely punished in their own quiet way.

Again, let me reiterate, we will probably never hear the whole story, only bits and pieces of it. Conspiracy theorists--this is juicy material but you're never going to get it right (I'm sorry to say). Too much evidence has been destroyed.

Fedcops did terribly there. But they also save our butts on a daily basis from some truly evil scumbags. Policy changes to make them accountable are in order, but I hardly think that they are all the monsters some of us paint them out to be. This is an emotional issue but emotion will do nothing to solve the underlying problems.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), October 08, 1999.

@

I doubt that anyone would care that they bugged the compound after the shoot out. That's to be expected. It's not like they're tapping your phone without a warrent. Besides, the mic's record both sides. With the way this government is going I think we need to record what the fed's troops are doing.

Gilda

The claim that Koresh though he was Jesus was based on a sound bite taken out of context. He was discounting something a reporter asked him by saying "if that's true then I'm Jesus Christ." But it made for great TV so I guess it was justified.

I am suprised at the number of people who fell for that. Some people are so weak minded when it comes to ideology, they would elect a rapist president if he declared himself compassionate. It doesn't take brains, only bullsh1t to gather up a flock of liberals.

Koresh's neighbors didn't have a problem with him. When the sheriff arrested him for being involved in a gun fight with the former leader of the sect (it was ruled self defence) he made the arrest by picking up the phone and calling Koresh who then turned himself in. He may have been guilty of statutory rape, but that's a matter for the local police, and by no means the BATF.

I wonder when people will pay enough attention to ask some simple questions about what they are told.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 08, 1999.

Amen, Coprolith, Amen.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), October 08, 1999.

coprolith You said "Koresh did not have to act like the maniac that he did if he truly cared about the safety of those women and children. He could have surrendered peacefully and had his day in court--perhaps with a good chance of getting acquitted."

The problem is, I very much doubt that anyone outside of the compound have any idea how Koresh acted. All we know is what the feds told us. And we know they have lied about what happened already. So how can we say Koresh acted one way or the other. Perhaps if you go over the transcripts of tapes made by yhe feds you'll have some insight.

And put yourself in the situation that he was in. The feds pull up outside of a building where you and your church live. You step outside with your hands over your head and caution them that women and children are inside. They shoot at you and you get a superficial stomach wound. You retreat inside. A gun fight starts. You get your people to stop shooting several time to try to get a cease fire. The feds use that opportunity to gain a tactical advantage in positioning. And they don't stop shooting in any case. calls to 911 don't bring an end to the battle. (The only thing that did was when the BATF ran out of ammo. They handed in 12 rounds between the 80 of them after they stood down from the situation.) Now ask yourself, if you get out of this, are you going to get a fair trial? And in case your not sure, it turns out they didn't.

Don't believe me. Go look at the video footage yourself. Do some research. See for yourself. But please don't ignore this matter. It's very important to you and your civil rights.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 08, 1999.

Vernon Howell, like Jim Jones before him, was responsible for the deaths of his followers. Not the FBI, Not the BATF, Not the Delta Forces. Vernon Howell and his close lieutenants killed all of the men, women and children inside of the compound, then killed each other, and some themselves. Howell tried to puss out at the last second but his #2 said no way and popped him. They also set the fires that destroyed the compound as all of this was going down. This is the stone truth and has been known by many for a long time. To believe otherwise is to be in denial. Hate the government if you must but embrace the truth for it will set you free.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), October 08, 1999.

Elaine, I pay my taxes even though I think most of the money is wasted. It's the law, so we pay. I don't have an arsenal, and I don't call myself a savior or try to lure people away from their families or have sex with young children. If you had seen the program on TV a few years ago, where a father and daughter speak with anguish about the wife and mother following Koresh, you would see how some of those felt who had been abandoned for a "savior."

Perhaps you ought to see who is at fault here. Hey, why didn't he just let the BAFT in. If he *wasn't doing anything wrong*, and his sheep wanted to follow him blindly, as sheep are inclined to do, then I'm sure he would not have been bothered and the BAFT would have looked like fools. But he had plenty of reasons for not wanting the Feds looking over his arsenal and asking him mortifying questions about his sex life with children and others. So don't shame me; How about taking off your blinders Gods1 sheep.

And I'll tell you something else. I'll take my chances with the Feds anyday, in spite of their many Keystone Cop blunders, rather than taking my chances with the likes of Koresh. That man was a nut and a sleazey con preying on gullible people. I'm sorry people died because of him, but what can you expect when you hole up with a nut.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), October 08, 1999.

Anyone that believes this colonel would also believe in the tooth fairy... If your analytical skills are so miniscule as to fail to see right through this attempt to perpetuate this six-year-old coverup, then you'd better stop signing all those letters after your name - you never really deserved them. Nothing but lies have come out of the fedgov camp, if you don't know this, you haven't done your homework.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 08, 1999.

Coprolith- you say "I suspect that these agencies have purged themselves on the inside and that the guilty involved are already severely punished in their own quiet way".

Umm, No. Lon Horiuchi, the shooter from Ruby Ridge, the one that put a bullet into a mothers HEAD as she held her BABY in one arm, and held the door open with her other. You know, that guy...the one that was finally put up on State charges of Involuntary Manslaughter 4 or 6 years AFTER the event and summarily had the STATE charges DISMISSED by a federal 'judge'. (how does that separation of powers thing work again?) Yeah, THAT guy.

Well, he was at Waco.

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), October 08, 1999.

Gilda- you say "I pay my taxes even though I think most of the money is wasted. It's the law, so we pay."

Umm, what law is that?? Do you even know?? I know what law talks about Income tax and I have read it and looked all thru it and you know what?? I can NOT find the ACTUALL law that states "the american citizen has a liability to pay income tax." IF you read it and THINK, you'll be amazed. However, if you continue to be a good little sheeple, well, so be it. I feel ashamed for America by the actions of her 'educated' masses.

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), October 08, 1999.

"eyes_open" (best@wishes.not),

"I doubt that anyone would care that they bugged the compound after the shoot out. That's to be expected. It's not like they're tapping your phone without a warrent. Besides, the mic's record both sides. With the way this government is going I think we need to record what the fed's troops are doing."

Duuuuhhh, you didn't really think that one through did you? If they admitted that they had bugged the place then the public would want to hear it. As soon as they heard the Davidians lighting fires, they would ask the Feds why they didn't go in to the rescue. Judging by the way most of these people are reacting, they would have been ready to hang the Feds if they didn't get on their knees and kiss the ground that Koresh walked on.

Koresh was a delusional psycopathic con-man that lead all of these innocent people to their deaths and didn't have the guts to back up his own words with his life. Why are you defending such a worthless piece of scum? For someone who supposedly has "eyes_open" you sure are blind.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 08, 1999.

Mr. BJB, it is a safe bet that you are excluding yourself from the 'educated' masses you so disdain. YDKS!

-- Truth (at@the.ready), October 08, 1999.

Yep, "Truth" I do. I'll even briefly explain. When I was in high school I learned about all the wonderful things that Franklin D. Roosevelt did for this country. So, I went home and told my Grandpa about what I had learned in school. He looked at me and said "Let me tell you something. I remember FDR. He was a dirty, nasty CROOK!!!" He then proceeded to tell me about his personal experiences at the time (he was in his early 20's then); especially the gold grab. Never again will I look at history (and the American FEDERAL education sytem) the same way.

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), October 08, 1999.

Gilda - part of the problem is that the people of this country read the establishment press and watch tv, and they consider themselves informed. All that will get you is propagandized. 1-Koresh came to the door and was shot for his trouble. 2-He jogged every morning, and could have been taken alone. 3- There were NO illegal weapons. 4- The child protection services had investigated for two years and found NO evidence of abuse, sexual or otherwise. 5- Kiri Jewell had been discredited after her congressional testimony, as her father had coached all those lies. 6- The lies about the methamphetamine lab were contrived in order to get around the posse comitatus act and use the military. Until you've seen the video, "Waco: the rules of engagement" and looked a little further than your newspaper, you really are illustrating what the meaning of sheeple is.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 08, 1999.

LOL! Patrick,

"Until you've seen the video, "Waco: the rules of engagement" and looked a little further than your newspaper, you really are illustrating what the meaning of sheeple is."

You watch a fictitous video and this makes you much so more aware than any of the sheeple! And on what basis are we supposed to conclude that everything this video tells is any more true than the government information?

-- @ (@@@.@), October 09, 1999.

Yes @, that is true. You see, the Waco tape contains, among other things, the FedGov FLIR tape (Forward Looking InfaRed) that shows gunfire from the postition of the M-88 recovery vehicles ("tanks") going towards the building. It also shows the lies of 3 fedgov agencies.

Please, watch it. You might learn something. (god forbid)

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), October 09, 1999.

Look, I'm not saying that blood is not on the fedgov's hands. It is. I'm just trying to be realistic. The evidence is toast. Most of the witnesses are dead or behind the blue wall of silence. This case is going to go nowhere, in our very own land of the free. There is far too much red tape tied to every aspect. This whole thing used to anger the heck out of me but now I simply acknowledge that rehashing Waco is a waste of energy. I humbly suggest that we'd all better spend it on actively preventing the next Waco rather than punishing the guilty in the first.

Justice was not done. It can never be done. The dead cannot be brought back to life. My point is that if they could, we'd be hearing stories that would surprise both the fedgov and the conspiracy theorists. There are about ten sides to every story, and we haven't heard ANY of them. My suspicion is that the it was like a Greek tragedy, with people drawn in to a lousy situation with equally dismal roles to play until it escalated into cataclysmic disaster. Very little choice involved except whether to play ball or not.

My other point is that there is a dim hope, a bright side to emerge from all this gruesome mess: the fedcops, being human beings, have to go to sleep at night and kiss their wives and kids every day. They simply can't afford to f*** up like this again. And they probably won't, if they have an ounce of grey matter in their skulls. I pray that I'm right. Your're of course free to believe differently. I still love you and respect your opinions.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), October 09, 1999.

BJB,

Gee, I don't suppose the religious fanatics that produced the video happened to mention that Koresh was firing at them first? No, didn't think so. The government cannot afford to have all of their best sharp shooters and delta forces sitting around for days twiddling their thumbs waiting for that weasel to comply with their requests. They had reason to believe he was in violation of the law and they asked him over and over again to come out. If Koresh wasn't claiming to be some kind of a religious savior they wouldn't have waited more than a couple of hours, and no one would have cared. But just because he was playing God all the bleeding hearts come out of the woodwork crying and whining. That low-life egomaniacal psycopath has to obide by the same laws that everyone else does whether he claims to be Jesus Christ or the King of Siam.

By the way, since your so friggin smart how come you brag on the Internet about how you don't have to pay taxes because you interpret the law differently than the IRS does? Did it not occur to you that they are going to be on you like white on rice? Maybe after you do a few years in the Fed Pen you won't feel quite so "ashamed for America by the actions of her 'educated' masses". I'm sure you'll turn out to be a "good little sheeple" after all! Good luck with that audit.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 09, 1999.

Several hours later... no sign of BJB. Well, that's one way to get rid of a stupid troll rather quickly! He set himself up by being a loudmouth braggard, all I did was make him aware of it. I don't suspect we'll be hearing from him again, at least not under the same name.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 09, 1999.

@

In a situation where the police have a stand off that lasts any amount of time they always put listening devices in the building if they have them. And the Feds have them aplenty. Since the evidence from the listening devices was presented at the trial it's a matter of public record. You can get copies of the transcripts.

The television video that recorded the begining of the raid shows the BATF riding up in trailers, hopping out, placing latters up on the building and climbing up on the roof. No one is shooting at them.

And I would still like to know what reason they gave for bulldozing the crime scene back in to the flames.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 09, 1999.

Hey, don't call me a sheeple Mr. Bonehead Bushardt because I pay my taxes. So what if you can't quote me a particular law, with a primary source, Volume number, Page number, ect., Just prove you're are not a sheep yourself by calling up your friendly neighborhood IRS office and declaring that you will never pay income tax again. Oh, and be sure and give them your Social Security number. Better yet, send it to them in writing--then I'll be impressed with your lack of sheepleness and even more impressed with your daring. Or if you don't pay taxes, exactly how do you keep from it, or are you on public assistance and get help from the state.

Also Mr. B, if Roosevelt hadn't instituted the Social Security Program, many people wouldn't even have grocery money nowadays. Those people who weren't as fortunate as your grandpa to own gold, only had to worry about where their next meal was coming from.

Patrick, I do not get my information from the main stream media, if you'd read any of my posts, other than this one in the last year, you would know that. Also, I do not get my information from spurious and one-sided videos made by people who have their own agenda. Making videos is one of the easiest ways possbile to distort anything you want to distort. If that's your example of the unvarnished truth, better look a little more. Also, I was not talking about Kiri Jewell; I was talking about a show on one of the expose' programs. It wasn't 60 Min, but something similar.

@.@ you're right about the "bleeding hearts." All you have to do in this country to bring out the bleeding hearts and the credulous in droves is to say you've "found God," or repented of your sins or saw a white light. Have you ever noticed how many "true believers" turn up on death row after they've killed innocent people. Then all the sheeple turn out with candles and hyms and pray to the governor's to save the killer's rotten lives. My sympathy is for the victims and their families.

And even if the Feds did botch the thing, it was nobody's fault but those who chose to go with Koresh and Koresh himself. The adults made their choices, and everyone, as adults, are responsible for their own actions. But if you want to shed crocodile tears over a nut, go right ahead. I'm sure it will make you feel all warm and fuzzy.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), October 10, 1999.

please notice that the murders at Ruby Ridge and Waco were specifically and deliberately PROMOTED by the Clintons. Not punished, promoted.

The two highest ranking Delta Force officers present and in control now have a toatl of 5 stars (general rank) between them - never before have two colonels been promoted so fast in peacetime over other officers. The FBI and BATF leaders were also promoted. Those who have criticized the federa actions were fired or moved out of their previous positions into low-end, dead-end jobs.

Same thing happened to the FBI agents investigating the treason at the Dept of Energy nuclear labs: they were delaoted, passed over for promotion, had their investigation hindered, had evidence and their own noted destroyed.....

But you, somehow, Gilda, in your love of Roosevelt and abject hatred of the Republicans, are confusing his patriotism and action with Clintons' treason and lies.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), October 11, 1999.

Brendt

I've noticed you and others on here saying Amercian citizens are not 'really' required to pay income taxes.

If that's true, then why are so many tax-evading Americans in federal prison?

Serious question. Thanks!

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 11, 1999.

Gilda and Deano,

You won't be hearing from that slimy tax-evading Brent again. I scared him off the other night when I pointed out that the government is probably searching the net and he can probably expect an audit as soon as they pinpoint his location. What an idiot! LOL!!

-- @ (@@@.@), October 11, 1999.

Hello, all. I am back to my regular posting schedule :)

Sorry to disappoint you @, but I'm back :> LOL

In response to several questions about me and Federal Income Tax; I have called the IRS and asked questions. I have told them that I am not paying Federal Income Tax by following the CFR title 26 section 1.1445-1 and 1.1445-2 Link:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/26cfr1v12_99.html

That is the Law according to the IRS. I filed a copy of that and what it instructs with my employer and I followed the IRS instructions that came about 2 weeks later. I now do not have any Federal Income Tax witheld from my paycheck. From my reading of Title 26 USC section 1 Determination of Liability I see that I have no liability to pay Income Tax as defined. I am not a "taxpayer" as defined by Title 26; thus I have no need to file a 1040 or any other form.

This was all done more than 2 years ago. I have not heard from the IRS at all since then.

Thus, I do not pay federal Income Tax, Legally

Deano- mainly because they have not read the law and do not understand exactly what they need to do. I have followed the law. However there are corrupt judges that are practicing and they do not follow the Law - with them, only one thing can be done; get them out of office.

All those who pay Federal Income Tax are SHEEPLE. You don't have to pay something that is Voluntary - you choose to do so out of ignorance.

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), October 11, 1999.

Hi @

I find it hilarious that we posted the above two messages at the same time :)

Life (and you) are way too funny :)

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), October 11, 1999.

Yeah, let us know when you get out of prison, then we'll talk.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 11, 1999.

@- Have you ever heard of denial?? It's not just a river in Egypt!!

LOL !! :)

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), October 11, 1999.