Will any doomer, who has invested time and money in Y2k disaster preparations or complete lifestyle changes, be mad enough to murder those who have spoken the loudest of the coming apocalypse if the rollover occurs and nothing significant happens? How do people like Ed Yourdon, Jim Lord, Gary North, Michael Hyatt, and even Paul Milne feel about this? Any worries? Is there not a significant number of individuals who may have followed the advice of the more dire of the doomsayers who may become pathologically unstable if the events do not unfold as prophesized?

-- Plato the Elder (plato@giblet.net), October 07, 1999

Answers

I think we're all big boys and girls here and can take responsibility for whatever action / inaction we choose to pursue.

-- dan (dbuchner@logistics.calibersys.com), October 07, 1999.

Rage? Hell no! I'll be happier than a pig in, well, you know.

This stuff isn't just about Y2K. It's good advice in general. We live in a wacky world these days. You just never know what's going to happen.

Example. We live in the country, and get hit with a power failure just about every thunder and snow storm. We should have installed a generator years ago. Y2K opened our eyes.

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 07, 1999.

Are you an idiot, or do you just play one on TV?

Come oooooooon! Give me a break. Yea, it really was a bitr, gosh, I sure am MAD. I wanted a 10 baby! Dammit! I guess I got to go back to work now and build my two businesses into Fortune 500 companies. Aw shucks! And I really wanted to spend my days picking beans and shucking corn.

-- I'm (with@titude.now), October 07, 1999.

What leaders? I don't see no stinkin leaders. Wish we did have some leadership to get us out of this mess.

-- R (riversoma@aol.com), October 07, 1999.

Hmmm. Let's turn it around, shall we?

What if we "doomers" are right? Say, Ed Yourdon?

What if we end up with a Year of Disruptions and 10 Years of Depression?

Or, better yet, Paul Milne? Civil war, breakdown of government, chaos, millions of deaths, all preventable.

What could be the feelings of rage among the MAJORITY, those who have been led to believe that all is well by their elected and appointed officials?

Could we see a wave of assassinations and lynchings spreading across the country? Will the majority of the people take responsibility for their actions?

If people feel the actual pinch of hunger, look into their families faces, are they going to say, "I made the decision, I will live with it", or are they going to say they have been tricked, misled, lied to?

Will they follow proper democratic proceedure and "vote the bums out" or will they vent there rage in a more direct manner?

Dear Plato, I await your answer. There are MANY more unprepared than there are preppers. What will we be seeing IF the doomers are correct?

-- mushroom (mushroom_bs_too_long@yahoo.com), October 07, 1999.

Why would anyone be mad at these people? If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't have gotten a computer college education. I wouldn't of had my eyes opened up, I wouldn't have come into contact with the many wonderful people on this forum, and I wouldn't have learned good communication skills. There's just too many great things that have happened here to be angry at anyone for. We owe these people more than we could ever repay them for. They cannot take back the time they have spent, the generous knowledge they have shared, and the fortitude to tell the truth when no one else would. If nothing happens, so what, I'll give some of my food to the food banks, and I'll have plenty of water to water my garden with next year. Thank you Ed, Gary, Michael, Paul, Sysman, Diane, Old Git, KoS, Stan, (keep adding to this list everyone who feels like I do). Bardou

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), October 07, 1999.

It's easy for the pollys to be cocky on the Internet, but I think most of them are two-faced liars. If they would permit us to search their homes, I bet we'd find that 9 out of 10 have just as much preps stored away as we do.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 07, 1999.

Plato the Elder...I will personally find you and kick your ass for being a moron. There, there's rage for you...

-- Uncle Bob (UNCLB0B@Y2KOK.ORG), October 07, 1999.

I asked that question a few months ago. No one admitted to being upset if things turned out to be a bump. My personal opinion is that there will be at least a few who have changed lifestyle, denied themselves for the last year or two to prepare, that will go off the deep end. I wouldn't be surprised if Eddie needed to move because of threats on his life.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 07, 1999.

Maria,

Are you saying you have information that someone may threaten Ed's life? Well, it's on the record now. If anything like that should happen, we'll be sure to send the FBI to visit you first.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 07, 1999.

My "going off the deep end" will be to go back to school with the cash I saved and look for another job with maybe less security but more fun. After all, if it is only a BITR then the economy will keep on truckin', right? Beanie Babies and Christopher Radko ornaments will still be worth something. I'll be sitting pretty with my Y2K stash holding me over between jobs, so I can take my time looking.

No rage here if Y2K fizzles - just relief. Hoping like heck it is just a BITR. I'll get a T-shirt that says "I survived Y2K" - maybe invite neighbors over for a block party. Woo hoo!

-- Margaret J (janssm@aol.com), October 07, 1999.

Sounds to me like Plato and Marie are planting some seeds of rage here. Anyone who has denied themselves anything it's of their own doing. No one twisted anyone's arm to prepare. Quit treating people like little children Maria.

-- ~~~~!!!!~~~~ (~~~!!~~~~.@x.com), October 07, 1999.

@@@@@@@@@@,

You have a bad attitude. I pity your family.

Did I also mention that you are a moron?

-- (Pollywannacr@cker.com), October 07, 1999.

What will happen if it does get bad? Don't you think we'll be pissed at all those pollies who pooh-poohed us?

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), October 07, 1999.

Maria: For every nutcase stalking Yourdon after a BITR, after a meltdown there will be several thousand seeking your papa, CPR.

-- a (a@a.a), October 07, 1999.

Ed,

Don't you already get plenty of death threats from pollies? I know North does. Jim probably gets death threats on official letterhead...

Maria,

Louis Freh, FBI Director, recently classed all "apocalyptic christians" (i.e., people who hold a certain religious beliefs based on the Biblical Book of Revelations) as a threat to national security. Given the FBI track record for dealing with religious "kooks," I would say this could reasonably be interpreted as a death threat. Although on this scale, I would think burning and dismemberment, torching all their churches and urinating on their remains would be limited, due to budgetary constraints.

Many doomers like myself have limited their contact with their communities because of the hostile reaction, fed by media character assassination. Every American has been led by the snout to believe that if someone thinks Y2k will be bad enough to prepare for, THAT person is the problem, not the broken code. They are a freak, a panic-monger; they are yelling fire in a crowded theater, and are probably an apocalyptic christian (and we know what happens to them).

Doomers making death threats? Sorry, try again.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), October 07, 1999.

Aaaaw, come on now Maria, aren't you really the one with the bad attitude, venting your anger toward people who have every right to prepare themselves?

P.S. It doesn't help to post under false names, we know who you are.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 07, 1999.

Larry:

Pissed, yes. But I'll still probably end up feeding more than my fair share. *sigh* I take in stray cats, too. And swear I'll never do it again.

But they will have to sleep in the barn.

-- mushroom (mushroom_bs_too_long@yahoo.com), October 07, 1999.

Plato, No. There are no leaders. Only people conscientiously sharing information.

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), October 07, 1999.

1. NO

2. I don't know. Doomers don't normally threaten them on the forum.

3. NO

4. Probably not.

Where do you get these ideas?

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), October 07, 1999.

NO, I will NOT feel rage, just relief that things did not get as bad as they could have done. As a mother and a wife I am concerned about the survival of everything in the world that I love. I lie in bed at night worrying about what could happen and trying to convince myself that they might have it under control. I am genuinely frightened of events unfolding, and hope VERY MUCH that I won't need any of my preps!!

-- liz (thehalletts@bigfoot.com), October 07, 1999.

Who are you and how did you get here?

-- mar (derigueur2@aol.com), October 07, 1999.

Plato,

The only people who have mentioned rage or lawsuits in email to me have been pollies, some of whom have threatened, in vague and non-specific ways, that they will find some way to get retribution if I turn out to be wrong, and Y2K is a mere BITR. None of those who are undecided, but curious and concerned, and none of the doomer/pessimists, have said anything even remotely negative. All have been polite, grateful for whatever information I can provide them, and very much aware that it's up to them to make whatever decision makes sense for themselves.

I could imagine a negative reaction, perhaps, if I goaded and bullied a close friend or relative into making preparation against their own instincts and "gut instincts". Remember: the people that you've mentioned in your message are nothing more than individuals who have chosen to voice their concerns on the Internet, and in speeches, articles, etc. We're not the government, we're not the banking community, we're not a Fortune 500 company with a multi-million dollar PR department -- and I think it's those institutions who are most likely to be the object of rage if Y2K turns out to be a serious problem.

Ed

-- Ed Yourdon (HumptyDumptyY2K@yourdon.com), October 07, 1999.

Rage and Anger at our "doomer leaders" if they got things wrong? Oh hell yes! ESPECIALLY if the King Doomers sold me short and I only got ready for two years of a level ten event and I really need to prepare for five years of a level twelve!

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), October 07, 1999.

Never have so many (Doomers)

Wsihed so few (Pollies)

Would be so right

About so much.

(If I only had a brain)

-- Scarecrow (outstanding@inmy.field), October 07, 1999.

Ed,

I understand that you feel you are just providing information. But do you deny that there may be a certain number of individuals that may follow the advice of the doomsayers as blindly as the doomsayers say that the "sheeple" follow their government leaders? How are they to know the appropriate level of preparation for an non-understood future event? Why have not more of the doomsayers pointed out the successes of remediation? Cynicism? Mistrust? I would not underestimate the level of animosity towards false leadership/prophethood, no matter which side of the Y2K fence one happens to fall.

-- Plato the Elder (plato@giblet.net), October 07, 1999.

Plato,

What successes of remediation?

-- NokternL (nokternl@anywhereusa.com), October 07, 1999.

I'd like to turn this question around a bit.

Instead of rage, would anyone question their judgement or understainding of the problem next year if it turns out to be a BITR. If you are preparing for a 10 and it's a 2 would you wonder why you got it so wrong? I can't see raging against Ed or anyone else when it would be your own lack of judgement, understanding, etc. that caused you to do what ever it is you did.

But on the other hand I do wonder if all of the: "Aw shucks, I don't mind spending all that money on stuff I didn't need" won't be a bit much. If it turns out you have guessed wrong or listend to the wrong people will you refect a bit on why some time next year? Or will you be looking for any justification as to why you were really right?

This isn't a flame. I am curious.

-- The Engineer (The Engineer@tech.com), October 07, 1999.

Plato,

There may well BE legitimate successes in remediation out there. No one will know until next year, since the lawyers won't let anyone say anything.

Will I feel any animosity towards anyone if Y2k is Y2-nothing? Nah. I may be eating several helpings of crow, but so will a lot of people. Maybe we'll all have a cookout. I hope so.

But I'm a big boy. I make my own decisions. I live with them. I don't see preparing as a "win/lose" situation -- at worst, it's a "win/break-even" situation.

How many Pollies are going to be looking to string up Kosky, et. al., if TSReallyDoesHTF?

-- I'm Here, I'm There (I'm Everywhere@so.beware), October 07, 1999.

Rage? Hardly.

I can only speak for myself but I cannot imagine a better outcome than having the polly-view demonstrated to be the more accurate one.

I've stated quite clearly and on many occassions on this forum that I am responsible for my own actions. Not Ed Youdon, not Paula Gordon, not Jim Lord, not Paul Milne, not Cory Hamasaki, not Yardeni or Scary Gary. We are prepared for a range of possibilities, including no Y2K impact at all. In the end, if all we're out is some time and money, it will be a very good day.

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), October 07, 1999.

Engineer,

No guessing on my part. I have made a decision to prepare for a real threat. No one KNOWS what will happen next year. I have never told anyone what WILL happen, only what may (I never understood how anyone can make a statement as to what will happen next year).

Whenever I am faced with a threat, especially one as serious as Y2K, I will do whatever I can to prepare myself for that threat. I would not/will not ever feel bad about my decision to prepare. Sure I may look back in hindsight and say "I sure could have used that money I spent on preps for something else", but like they say, hindsight is always 20/20.

There have been many times in my life when I have looked back after the facts and said "gee, I wish I would have done it differently", but one can't dwell on the subject. What is done is done. I will accept it and hold my head high for doing what I felt was the right thing. No serious regrets whatsoever.

I have spent thousands of hours researching Y2K and to this day, I still don't feel confident guessing what will happen next year. All I know is if I'm that unsure of the future, I better do something in case there are problems. If for no other reason, for peace of mind.

-- NokternL (nokternl@anywhereusa.com), October 07, 1999.

The Engineer said:

I can't see raging against Ed or anyone else when it would be your own lack of judgement, understanding, etc. that caused you to do what ever it is you did.

Agreed. And likewise, if Y2K should be more than the 'bump in the road', no one should rage against Koskinen or other government or corporate personnel when it was obviously their own lack of judgement, understanding, etc. that caused them to fail to prepare. Wouldn't you agree?

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie _Rimmer@usa.net), October 07, 1999.

You know, I have seen similar questions, such as Plato's, asked numerous times and the so called "doomers" always seem to reply in great numbers, but when the question is reversed on the pollies, I don't recall any of them giving a credible reply. Not a single one. What's up with that?

-- NokternL (nokternl@anywhereusa.com), October 07, 1999.

Plato,

It's a perverse question. There are several things going on here: first, you are equating the multi-million-dollar POLLY PR campaign of lies and gut-level intimidation with the handful of books, and news letters that (by and large calmly) recommend that we prepare for the worst. This is just clumsy table-turning, and it's dishonest. Additionally, you've managed to insult both people who are preparing and not preparing, by implying that they are utterly without the capacity for critical thought and can only follow which voice seems most resonant with them (perhaps you've been reading Plato's facist blueprint, the Republic, too much before bedtime). Then you imply that they are so craven as to turn on the people who warned them of danger. Isn't this just a subtle way of intimidating pro-preparation writers and speakers? Why would you want to do that?

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), October 07, 1999.

Plato,

As I said on another thread, I will be mad as hell at anyone who can be proven to have knowingly lied. That goes for pollies and doomers alike.

As far as simply being "wrong" goes, no. Being wrong occasionally, even about big stuff, is part of being human. As the first respondent to your query said, we're big boys and girls and know that we takes our chances and pays our dues.

As far as actually going postal on someone, it's just not in me. However, no one should expect me to get too choked up about any unfortunate circumstances that befall anyone who tried to obsfuscate or exploit the situation.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), October 07, 1999.

Plato: The Christian church has been preaching Jesus' return the day after his resurrection. They have been preaching to get ready. Well, what if Jesus doesn't return? Should we shoot the preacher?

-- just wondering (justwondering@justwonderringg.xcom), October 07, 1999.

Before pointing the finger of blame, just consider the motives of the person who gave you advice... I believe Yourdon and North, for example, are posting because they want to help people. I don't believe the professional pollies have our good welfare in their hearts. (Have they _ever_?) And over here, in the Land of Oz, the Aboriginals "point the bone" at wrongdoers. The ones pointed-at just die.

-- David Harvey (vk2dmh@hotmail.com), October 07, 1999.

Isn't the real issue here responsibility? Why is it that so many refuse to responsible for their own actions? I realize we live in a society that teaches us we have no personal responsibility, but come on! We all know it's a sham and a perversion of truth.

Furthermore, I realize that those who can blame others for their own actions will do so, shunning personal responsibility. This brings up an interesting observation.

Basically what we are saying here is that people will blame us for being wrong (the outcome is better / worse then expected) AND others will blame us for being RIGHT. This is a LOSE LOSE situation. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. You can't have it both ways - and in fact, you ought not have it either way!! The only way to deal with this is to demand personal responsibility and accountability, and the only way to do that is to ignore those who refuse to assume personal responsibility. DON'T HELP THEM!!!.

Each person is responsible for their own actions - whether they did the research and the preps or not. If not, fine. It's NOT MY PROBLEM. They took it upon themselves to bury their heads in the sand.

Furthermore, I am not responsible for feeding those who refuse to prepare. I already know I will help some, but not others. I will not try to assume the responsibility for everyone, that isn't my job or my lot in life. To do so is to defeat your own self. You must live YOUR life, not somebody else's.

The larger issue here is who is responsible for who? Clearly we are responsible for ourselves and those who cannot help themeselves, ie., children, elderly, disabled, etc. The rest can float to the top to be skimmed off for all I care. Even Christ refused to help those who refused to help themeselves. This is an important lesson from scripture that we need to apply now.

-- Ray (shusters@montanasky.net), October 07, 1999.

Bold OFF!

Once again we have another thread, and I've read them for 18 months now, with the central theme "who's right-who's wrong", "what if you're/he's/she's/they're right/wrong/morons/geniuses". Caramba! This dichotomous thinking ladies and gentlemen is the central flaw in so-called "Western Civilization", and "Western Thought" (and I use THAT term, 'thought', loosely).

When whatever is going to shake out does, I think we individuals will find no clear cut right-wrong dichotomies at work. This mode of thinking in the Piagetian model of child development is finally transcended in most healthy human beings at about age 12. Concrete operations it is called. The next step from 12 through adult involves the development of the ability to see the world in other than black/white, right/wrong dichotomies...the ability to understand grey,...to abstract.

My question would remain: If human beings are stuck in concrete operations developmentally how will they know they must work on that to move on to the next cognitive level?

It's a 5th grade world, boys and girls!

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 07, 1999.

Let me simplify. Heck, I'm not permission-asking. Gonna simplify with or without permission. A real-life fable:

Becca (age 6), and Jay (Age 11) are in the backseat of the car, mom is driving all of us to Disneyland. They begin the ride quietly enough, excited about the day's events, but soon, they begin to do what children of that age do. "No, I didn't." "Yes, you did." "Mom! He's touching me!" "I am not, Mom, she's a little brat!" "I am not a brat, YOU'RE a brat!" Etc., etc., and if mom let's it continue it will, ad infinitum.

Mom, being a sometimes wise woman says: "The two of you must stop your bickering now. I want you to stop now! These are your choices. You can stop bickering, and get along like wise humans, or we will turn around and go home."

The children, who understand that mom is consistant and will follow through on the consequences, return to their view of the quickly passing scenery, and once again speak civilly to one another of how much fun they are going to have when we finally get there.

'The Bickersons' (aka children in grown bodies) are missing out on an awful lot of nice scenery on the way to Adventureland, ladies and gentlemen.

So ends the fable.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 07, 1999.

Gee Donna - I guess we've got you to tell us what is needed to graduate! You must feel special to see the world so clearly (or is that muddily). I hope you realize that since your world is gray - I'm not required to see it that way.

-- Seeing Clearly Now (Its@gray.world.com), October 07, 1999.

Plato: If you say that people may get mad enough to "murder" those who have spoken the loudest of the coming apocalypse, then I guess you would have to BLAME all of us! We ALL have put our 2 cents worth in, we have ALL given advice, we ALL have helped each other. If ALL have benefited for better or for worse so be it. So go ahead, come get me, I am ready. Which caliber bullet would you prefer?

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), October 07, 1999.

I hope you realize that since your world is gray - I'm not required to see it that way.

You're absolutely correct!

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 07, 1999.

Donna, right, when whatever's gonna happen, happens, and it happens to be BAD, we'll find no clearcut dichotomies; they'll find us, namely, live or die. And long history shows that BAD things brings us to this this simple reality. No matter how high we are flying in theory or methods. But, what do I know? I'm stuck in my 12th year, and pre-adolescent. OlGit's got it! It's a waste of time, but man, we are fed up of being judged by their standards; and let's see who'll rage when hungry. Mr Plato's ego soars seen this thread! I just imagine how he likes it.

-- Eli (Eli@zephyr.net), October 07, 1999.

For crying out loud! Shoot Yourdon or North? For WHAT?? Telling us to make preparations which in my area of the country are only common sense to begin with? (The power company here is one of the worst in the country. The winters are terrible, and we have been without power for a couple of days already in the middle of a snow storm.) For stocking up on food? If nothing happens, all it means is I don't have to go to the grocery store for staples for about 5 years. Just lettuce, and I'll be growing some of that.

I would suspect that most peoples preparations turn out to be just that, common sense. Plus let me point out that I had started prepping for the possibility LONG before I ever heard of Gary North. (Can't say that about Ed Yourdon, as I have about 8 of his texts, pre-Y2K, which were considered 'basics' in the field. But it was in a much different context.) So the only person I would have to 'blame' in the event that I am wrong is ME.

Let's get over the finger pointing at people like Ed Yourdon, Gary North, etc. All they are doing is telling it like it is.

-- just another (another@engineer.com), October 07, 1999.

I think the original questioner here hasn't realized that the great majority of the people who post here in favor of some degree of preparation are not followers. Events next year may show that these preparations were unnecessary. This would be a welcome outcome.

I pay quite a bit for auto, household and life insurance. So far many possible accidents have not happened. This has never provoked me to anger.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), October 08, 1999.

Gee this is an odd question. I thought we lived in a society where we are mandated to take out insurance (not to mention financial responsibility) for every contingency from homeowners insurance, fire insurance, flood, auto, health, major (really doomer) medical, business, key-man, etc., etc., etc.. What is it about being prepared that bothers you? Preparedness used to be a virtue in this country, ya know

But now, the liberal paranoids infecting the land are perverting even this virtue. Not content with providing for every contingency they have taken insurance to new levels of pervertedness. Instead of personal responsibility it is: sue the manufacturer not the user for misuse. Blame somebody else.

Plato, you know not where you tread. We here on this forum can think for ourselves and we are fed up with our leaders lying to us and saying one thing and doing something else.

We do know that it is the liberal left and those who are most irresponsible who will be the most angry if not downright panicked for their lives when this train gets to Clinton's Bridge. "Clinton's Bridge" because Bill claimed in his re-election presidential debates ('95) that he was the most qualified to lead this nation over that bridge to the next millineum. Remember? Unfortunately, when the train gets to that bridge, it will be going too fast and will not be able to stop in time to prevent a great train wreck should the bridge be out. History is litered with the wreckage of nations who were more preoccupied with cake and entertainment and drinking from the goblet of vile lies, one after another. Those of us on this forum may be just a small percentage of the population that can learn from history, our common sense and our God (not necessarily in that order).

sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), October 08, 1999.

Pluto, what are you doing out of the backyard.

I know I locked the gate.

Your master and friend,

Goofy

-- / (/@/.///), October 08, 1999.

There are plenty of examples of pathological instability right now.

Just not where you were expecting it.

Just look around you. Look in the mirror.

-- no talking please (breadlines@soupkitchen.gov), October 08, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Plato the Elder says: Will any doomer, who has invested time and money in Y2k disaster preparations or complete lifestyle changes, be mad enough to murder those who have spoken the loudest of the coming apocalypse if the rollover occurs and nothing significant happens?

I don't know of anyone who posts here as considering theirself to be "led." As far as I know, most of those you name don't even participate here, very much. We all listen to each other and don't speak with one voice. I haven't seen complaints about how arduous our lifestyle changes have been. Quite the contrary, those who have made changes have been happy to have made them, regardless of the outcome. For the most part, the heros you name have been respectful of peoples' need to decide for themselves what kind of preparations they feel comfortable making.

This is in contrast to the so-called leaders in government, who are engaging in psychological warfare against their constituents, by characterizing those who do prepare as hunkering down in churches with their skoal. It's one thing to be wrong. It's quite another to lie to the people who have elected you and to belittle them.

In case of major disruptions, what about the "complete lifestyle changes" that will be expected of those who did not prepare? Will they like sleeping 1,000 to a room? Will they adapt happily to their new diets of no beans, no rice, no tofu, no sprouts and no water? Will they become "pathologically unstable?"

Will they go after the "ones who heve spoken the loudest" about how there will be only a bump in the road? If we're going to worry about anybody's disillusionment, shouldn't it be this situation, rather than worrying about the ones who merely did their shopping a few months early?

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), October 08, 1999.

Plato,

No reason to get mad. My wife was sick for a couple of weeks and I was out of town. She used some of our supplies instead of going to town. Nice to have a little extra food etc.

If nothing comes of Y2K then there are still a lot of wiser Citzens out there for having to consider all this and make positve changes in their lives.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), October 08, 1999.

I don't think the threat to Ed, North etc. will come from active Pollys or Doomers. Tom Benjamin recently wrote that it is a lose-lose situation for Doomers. If it is bad, they will be hung out and scapegoated for making matters worse, for causing shortages etc. They will provide an easy to-hand target for politicians and others who will want to deflect the blame onto someone else. If, on the other hand, it is a BITR, then they will be hung out and scapegoated for causing whatever problems arise around the millenium due to fear or anxiety. They might also suffer derision, loss of professional credibility if nothing much happens. All of this will be totally unjustified, especially in Eds case (North, I think, has a different agenda and probably isn't too worried). I hope that should this turn of events arise, honest doomers and honest Pollys, and the vast majority in-between will be there to defend him in whatever way they can.

As for me, prepared only for the year-end rush, I will always be grateful for this process I have gone/am still going through.

-- Cautious (d8eefeoj@98oef.com), October 08, 1999.

Plato, this question is directed to Ed, but I have an urge to respond.

"Ed,

I understand that you feel you are just providing information. But do you deny that there may be a certain number of individuals that may follow the advice of the doomsayers as blindly as the doomsayers say that the "sheeple" follow their government leaders?"

On Ed's forum, there's no "Doomer" version of "sheeples". If you had half a brain, and took the time to get to know the "doomers" you'd see that we think for ourselves. The internet is not like TV, where most people feel compelled to sit in front of and swallow the spin. We chose to get our news from here exactly because we can talk back to whoever gives us the news/information and ASK QUESTIONS and DEBUNK MISINFORMATION. Can you do that with TV news spin? Can you ask questions privately to Koskinen?

"How are they to know the appropriate level of preparation for an non-understood future event?"

Because we have brains and can use them, we decide FOR OURSELVES. We're not limited to the 3 day winter storm Koskinen wants us to swallow.

"Why have not more of the doomsayers pointed out the successes of remediation?"

Why have not more pollies pointed out the successes of remediations?

Cynicism? Mistrust? I would not underestimate the level of animosity towards false leadership/prophethood, no matter which side of the Y2K fence one happens to fall."

If I were Ed, I'd feel a lot safer from the "doomers" than I would from the "pollies", doomers have their heads screwed on tight a lot more than the pollies I've encountered on this forum and others. Being me, I fear the pollies and the sheeple's wrath when they wake up and their cozy routines have been disupted.

-- (screwed@on.tight), October 08, 1999.

This is also for Ed. Please take off the blinders. Right now these doomers are praising your intelligence and kindness because they feel you are saving them from a life of grief in the ten year depression. (That's a whole other topic - I think even with their preps these doomers are too stupid to survive anything but I digress). Right now all you can see is the adulation they pour on you. Yeah, it feels good doesn't it? But I see a pack of wolves who attack anyone threatening them, perceived or real. These people are true wackos and you can't see it. They attack me for stating my opinion. I've done nothing to them on a personal level, yet they feel the need to continue to attack. Of course, you don't see that side of this admiring group of wolves. But I think that if things don't go as they plan, you will find out.

My evaluation: these are people who can't think for themselves, who act on emotions, who can't handle stress and they will turn on you.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 08, 1999.

Maria will be the wolf leader of the polly pack. Why are you so concerned about everyone here Maria? Do I sense a bit of jealousy from you that Ed has common practical sense and deep down you wished you were part of the group? I haven't read one single thing from any of your posts that would change my opinion about Y2K. As a matter of fact, all the polly posts I have read lack substance and facts. It's gotten to the point now that whenever I see your name and other's like you, I scroll right through them. As you can see from all the posts, no one is blaming anyone for anything, except the pollies. They are the ones pointing the finger, but they have 4 more pointing back at them. Give it up.

-- give it up (giveitupp@giveituppp.xcom), October 08, 1999.

Maria is Italian and Italy is toast.

Maria doesn't care as long as SHE is not toast.

Maria intends to market her house as Y2K-compliant in order to get more money for it. It IS Y2K-compliant.

Maria will be the first polly to disappear come Y2K.

-- Maria (is@so.dense), October 08, 1999.

I have a can of crisco with Squirrel King's name written all over it.

-- flora (***@__._), October 08, 1999.

Maria, One more time: This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives, and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans with other like-minded people. . ." When you post your unanted spiteful and catty opinions on a forum with that stated goal, you cannot complain if you are treated in kind. Even without what you perceive as provocation, you cannot hide your mean-spirited character and misstatements, as in this post on Debunking the Y2K hype, when you commented on Ed Yourdon's open letter to Alan Greenspan:

The chant is beginning to die down. I think that's why Eddie decided to "answer" Greenspan. He needed to stir the doomers up to blow more wind. Friday, 24-Sep-1999 14:33:57

You say "I've done nothing to [the doomers} on a personal level." Oh really? If you don't recognize a personal attack when you make one, then there's no basis for rational discussion.

This is the only response I'm going to make to you, Maria, so as to negate an interminably boring and tangent-ridden thread full of your sound and fury, signifying nothing.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 08, 1999.

NokternL: True no one knows what will happen next year. But then no one knows what will happen the year after or the year after etc. If anyone did they could put the Psychic Hotline out of business.

Weve all done things we wish we have done differently. My question was in the nature of do you wonder (consider, ponder, think about) why the decision was wrong. And is there something that you could do in a similar situation next time to make a better decision. I think you answered my question.

As to your second question. Beats me. Cant speak for them. My answer is below.

Arnie: Yes I agree. The only caveat being if information was withheld. Not rumors of information or rumors of rumors of information but real proof that things were not as they seem. And again that would have to be something widespread not with regard to any particular enterprise.

-- The Engineer (The Engineer@tech.com), October 08, 1999.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yeah that's it! Why didn't I think of it???? I'm jealous!!!! Wow you guys are a trip!! Old Git, it's also a free country where I can voice my opinions whatever they may be. I wish I had a nickel every time someone brought up the purpose of this forum. What's the matter Git, no one on your "preparedness" forum, so you need to browse others?

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 08, 1999.

Maria - you're Italian? Me too.

Hey, let's meet in February somewhere for some Sambvca & biscotti.

I weigh 130 lbs - featherweight class.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), October 08, 1999.

> these are people who can't think for themselves, who act on emotions, who can't handle stress and they will turn on you.

Why are you suprised when you get, in so many words, a "F&ck you, too, Maria" as a response to this kind of "evaluation?" "Evaluate" THIS, Maria. We don't loathe you because you disagree with us. We loathe you because you malign us personally, and with a consistent disregard for the facts that we're trying to share. You're not a gadfly, you're a hungry mosquito.

And your manner is increasingly vicious and desperate, I've noticed, as the facts roll in and the moment of truth draws near...

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), October 08, 1999.

Liberty, Did I mention anybody by name? NO. Please read the words again. You are trying to share facts?? Oh that's a good one! Only if the facts are about bad news. You don't share any good news facts and attack anyone who brings you good news facts.

"And your manner is increasingly vicious and desperate" BWAHAHAHAHA I haven't written to the forum in months. I post to a few threads, the last two days maybe most frequently in recent times. Vicious and desperate about what? Desperate that I will die on 1/1/00! Now even you don't really believe that. Please find the words that I've posted that are vicious.

You bunch of hypocrites! Mr. Decker was the most articulate, reserved, gentle person who ever posted to this forum. Where is he now? You pack of wolves did your thing with YOUR vicious attacks. You guys are a trip!!!

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 08, 1999.

Kool it Maria. Ken got a job, and still posts here once in a while. What's up with this:

"these are people who can't think for themselves,"

And I suppose that you are the only one on this forum who can? Doctors, engineers, programmers, all kinds of smart, educated people, and you are the genius? Give me a break!

Read your own words, Maria:

"I think even with their preps these doomers are too stupid to survive anything"

"These people are true wackos and you can't see it"

And you wonder why you get crap from us, Maria? I've respected your opinion in the past, but who needs this BS? Grow up. Better yet, get lost.

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 08, 1999.

Ok I'll get lost. But these are my words, "My personal opinion is that there will be at least a few who have changed lifestyle, denied themselves for the last year or two to prepare, that will go off the deep end." These are the people I'm referring to. If you fall into this category then you "are too stupid to survive anything" and "are true wackos" So not only do I read my own words but I've posted them here for you to read. And once again, I haven't cited any regulars who post to this forum.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 08, 1999.

Listen Maria, I've never had a "fight" with you before, and I don't want one now. If you're not talking about people on the forum, why bring this up? There have always been, and will always be, a few lose screws in the world. If that's what you are saying, fine, I apologize for misunderstanding you. But I still don't think you can "blame" it on Y2K, or EY, or GN. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 08, 1999.

So what if there are a few that will go off the deep end end? Don't we see that every day? Why does that bother you? Why blame others for it? So what if they are"wackos"? Do you see a mirror of yourself? Is that why you sound so desperate, out of control? Can't you move on and go somewhere else? Is your sadism(or is it really masochism?) for your fellow men so strong that you can't just leave this forum alone? Are you smart enough to survive anything? Why hide in your statement that you don't cite any regulars of the forum?... Oh! so many questions and so little time And she calls us crazy? ...

-- Eli (Eli@zephyr.net), October 08, 1999.

Hey guys, her full name is Troll Maria, as she presented herself last year. She subsequently dropped the Troll prefix, but it never changed her. You can dress up a troll but...

-- (screwed@on.tight), October 08, 1999.

This all seems rather silly.

Thanks to those who have made a convincing case, I have prepared and I'm glad I did. I've learned things I wouldn't have learned otherwise in many areas, and I'm glad I did. I've changed my lifestyle in some ways I find distinct improvements for the long run, and I'm glad I did. And if nothing much happens, I can live much more cheaply for the next year or two, and I'm glad of that too.

And thanks to the lunatic fringe, I've had a laff riot in the process. And I'm glad I did.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), October 08, 1999.

First of all, I dont have a problem with the topic of this thread, but what I do have a serious problem with is the listing of names concerning the issue of rage and retribution, even as its put. I just dont believe that this is appropriate. I agree with The Engineer and Arnie Rimmer, we are each responsible for our own decisions: The Engineer: I can't see raging against Ed or anyone else when it would be your own lack of judgement, understanding, etc. that caused you to do what ever it is you did.  Arnie Rimmer: Agreed. And likewise, if Y2K should be more than the 'bump in the road', no one should rage against Koskinen or other government or corporate personnel when it was obviously their own lack of judgement, understanding, etc. that caused them to fail to prepare. Wouldn't you agree? Ed, I bought your book, Time Bomb 2000. I found it to be full of speculation, hype, and exaggeration, as most Y2K books are. But I am not angry, I was very entertained by it :) (Actually, I had been working on Y2K for some time before I bought it for the fun of it. You should be happy to sell that stuff for ANY cause, lol). As in your book, I also find something in your post above VERY HARD TO BELIEVE! Yourdon: The only people who have mentioned rage or lawsuits in email to me have been pollies, some of whom have threatened, in vague and non-specific ways, that they will find some way to get retribution if I turn out to be wrong, and Y2K is a mere BITR. Sorry Ed, Im not buying this, it just doesnt make sense. Why would a polly threaten you, even in vague and non-specific ways, that they will find some way to get retribution if I turn out to be wrong, and Y2K is a mere BITR? By definition a polly BELIEVES that Y2K is going to be a BITR, if you turn our wrong, there would be no REASON for them to threaten and get retribution. This is more poop ED, pure and simple, but smelly non the less. You suck up to your fans who believe your nonsense, and paint pollies as dangerous. Give us some examples of pollies threatening you if I turn out to be wrong, and Y2K is a mere BITR. Please post your emails, direct us to the threads of those pollies who have somehow threatened you IF y2k is a bump in the road. Show us your evidence, or drop the BS. Yourdon: We're not the government, we're not the banking community, we're not a Fortune 500 company with a multi-million dollar PR department -- and I think it's those institutions who are most likely to be the object of rage if Y2K turns out to be a serious problem. Hypocrisy at its finest, Ed. Distort possible rage as coming only from those who believe that Y2K is going to be a minor event (pollies), and now point to the government and businesses as targets of rage.. In summary, we are each responsible for our own actions, no one should be threatened, and Ed, you have just provided us with a bit more nonsense in your post above. Regard,

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), October 08, 1999.

Thought I'd respond before I take time to read the 75 comments preceding mine. (Wow! Can't WAIT to see where THIS thread has been!)

Your post, Plato, annoys me. But your title question is a good one.

I'm definitely in the camp of those who question whether the fault tolerance of the world's techno-economic-sociopolitical systems will withstand the onslaught of countless simultaneous failures. So I guess that qualifies me to wear the doomer hat.

Rage if it's not the end of the world?! My own response, and certainly that of most here, will be soul-deep gratitude and joy. Gratitude that we have more time to help each other make the world a saner, safer, friendlier place. Joy that all that's good and true and beautiful about us human beings will have an extended opportunity to manifest more its potential.

Notariety makes targets of all, "Plato", ("Sheesh" I can hear Donna saying) regardless of the color of their opinions. I, for one, owe a debt of gratitude to all who have courageously shared their observations, analysis, facts, and opinions on the topic. The past 18 months of following y2k developments are among the most engaging and mind-expanding periods of my life. And I am thankful for them, regardless of how the process works out.

NOW! Fast scroll to the top!

-- Faith Weaver (suzsolutions@yahoo.com), October 08, 1999.

Fact Finder, if you could read the old Debunking Y2K posts, you would find some colorful rhetoric from cpr and co. holding Ed Yourdon and others responsible for bankruptcies, broken marriages and suicides they claim were caused (and will be caused) by Y2K, and pledging to make the "doom leaders" pay somehow. In one scary post, cpr said he had files on everyone here at TB2000. I agree with Ed.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 08, 1999.