OT: "Mark of the Beast" [US Patent 5,878,155]

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

To begin with (especially for those who may be stumbling onto this forum for the first time), Y2K is not a religious issue, nor is TB2000 a religious forum - hence, I have labelled this post as "Off Topic" [OT].

I have read a few Christian commentaries of how Y2K might pave the way for a "Mark of the Beast" scenario - the "mark" being part of a mandatory universal economic protocol whereby future business is to be carried out. (For those who may not be familiar with the scenarios, they are found toward the end of Revelation 13 in the Bible and include the reference to the infamous '666').

Some, such as Dr. Carl Sanders, have actually worked on the development of human-implantable biochips to this end. Sanders' team determined that the most appropriate insertion for these implants would be in the right hand or forehead where human body temperature variances are more pronounced - the chips are powered via temperature variance. Do a websearch if interested.

Since 1976, however, I have heard rumors to the effect that the mark might be some sort of invisible laser-engraved barcode. I excerpt here from United States Patent 5,878,155 directly from the < href="http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html">USPTO Web Patent Database (i.e. this is not a hoax) as food for thought.

Please contact me @ z@figure.8m.com if you have any additional info concerning this topic. [My PGP Key]

My opinion? Like Y2K, I don't know, but I think it could be bad . .


United States Patent 5,878,155 (March 2, 1999)

Method for verifying human identity during electronic sale transactions


A method is presented for facilitating sales transactions by electronic media. A bar code or a design is tattooed on an individual. Before the sales transaction can be consummated, the tattoo is scanned with a scanner. Characteristics about the scanned tattoo are compared to characteristics about other tattoos stored on a computer database in order to verify the identity of the buyer. Once verified, the seller may be authorized to debit the buyer's electronic bank account in order to consummate the transaction. The seller's electronic bank account may be similarly updated.


1. Field of the Invention

The present invention relates to the identification of humans. More particularly, the present invention relates to the application of invisible, indelible tattoos on humans for purposes of identification in order to conduct monetary and credit transactions in a secure manner.

2. Description of the Related Art

The advent of computer networks, particularly computer networks owned by financial institutions, has created the ability to conduct point-sale transactions in unforseen ways. While credit cards have been in use for many years, new forms of cards are appearing that take the place of paper money. This new form of cash, commonly called "e-money," is placed onto a card with a magnetic strip, much like a credit card. Unfortunately, as with credit cards, e-money can be stolen. However, unlike credit cards, e-money can be used by the thief with relative impunity because e-money, as with regular cash, is not registered as "owned" by anyone.

In order to facilitate the identification of humans, governments have issued cards and papers with the names and photographs of the person to which the card or paper is issued. An example of such a card or paper is the common drivers license or passport. However, as with credit cards and e-money, the drivers license or passport can be lost or stolen. In addition, phoney identification cards can be made by unscrupulous individuals. There are, however, systems for verifying use of a credit or identification card. Such a system is described in U.S. Pat. No. 5,513,272 to Bogosian, herein incorporated by reference for all purposes. The Bogosian system uses fingerprint and voice print matching to verify the identity of the card holder. Unfortunately, this dual matching is subject to problems, particularly when the card holder has a cold or other respiratory infection that affects speech patterns.

There have been other methods to permanently identify humans. During the holocaust, the Nazis tattooed the arms of Jews with a unique identifying number. On an episode of the "X-FILES," a fictional television program on the FOX television network, a human was abducted by aliens who conducted experiments on the abductee. In order to permanently tag the abductee, the aliens etched a unique bar code onto one of the abductee's teeth. Neither of these methods is practical for marking humans for electronic sale transaction purposes. First, social conscience dictates that any permanent marking of humans not be conspicuous, such as a visible numbering on an arm like the holocaust victims. Second, the bar code must be long enough, large enough, and accessible enough to make the transaction efficient. Thus bar codes on teeth would not be practical because of the limited size of the teeth and the embarrassment caused by sales personnel placing scanning equipment in a customer's mouth.

There is, therefore, a need in the art for verifying the identity of humans by electronic means that facilitates the transaction of sales, particularly e-money, through computer networks. It is an object of the present invention to overcome problems in the prior art.


The present invention solves the problems inherent in the prior art. A unique bar code or a unique design is tattooed with invisible ink on an individual. The tattoo can be either temporary or permanent and can be on any convenient portion of the person's anatomy, preferably the forearm. When the individual desires to make a sales transaction, the tattoo is scanned with a scanner. Characteristics about the tattoo are then compared to characteristics about other tattoos stored on a computer database. If the scanned characteristics match those on the database, then the person is identified and the seller will be authorized to debit the buyer's electronic bank account (assuming the buyer has sufficient funds). Unlike credit cards or identity papers, a tattoo cannot be easily lost or stolen.


FIG. 1 shows a tattoo on a human forearm of the identification system of the present invention,

FIG. 2 shows a scanner scanning a tattoo of the identification system of the present invention,

FIG. 3 shows a computer network of the identification system of the present invention, and

FIG. 4 is a flowchart illustrating a method of operation of the present invention.


As shown in FIG. 1, a tattoo 20 is applied to an appendage 30 of the wearer 15. In the preferred embodiment, an invisible, indelible ink would be used. A suitable ink would be "INVISIBLE SKIN MARKING INK #743" which is manufactured by Sirchie Finger Print Laboratories, 100 Hunter Place, Youngsville, N.C.

The tattoo 20 itself can be of any convenient shape or size. The invention works best when the tattoo is unique because no other means of identification are necessary. Although an invisible ink could be used, the invention would work equally well with a tattoo that is visible to the human eye.

In such an instance, a decorative design tattoo may be preferred by the wearer 15. Although in the preferred embodiment the tattoo 20 is permanent, the invention would work equally well with a temporary tattoo that made with removable ink. Furthermore, if the individual 15 does not wish to wear the tattoo 20, he or she may have the design or bar code placed on another medium, such as the skin adhesive material used for securing EKG leads. Suitable skin adhesive material is made by the Bard Parker Company. The tattoo 20 is placed on the skin adhesive material which, in turn, is placed on the wearer 15.

Aside from tattoos, the present invention also comprises a computer network 100 as shown in FIG. 3. Tattoo 20 characteristics are stored with the wearer's name, address, etc. in the identity database 50. Financial information about the wearer 15 is stored in a financial information database 60 that is part of the network 100. If necessary, the characteristics of the tattoo 20 can be combined with the financial information in the financial database 60, eliminating the need for a separate identity database 50 and allow the wearer 15 to remain anonymous during a commercial transaction. A suitable storage medium for the identity database 50 and the financial database 60 is a common tape drive or a hard disk drive. One or more scanners 40, and one or more central processing units (CPU) 80 are also attached to the network 100. The CPU 80 is used to compare scanned tattoo 20 characteristics with the tattoo 20 characteristics stored in the identity database 50. A suitable CPU is a microprocessor such as the "PENTIUM" made by Intel Corporation. If the tattoo 20 is visible to the naked eye, then any common scanner is suitable for the present invention. If invisible ink is used for the tattoo 20, then a scanner capable of emitting Type A ultraviolet light (UV-A) must be used. Under UV-A, the "invisible" tattoo appears as a brilliant white with human skin appearing as dark, providing a useful contrast for scanning purposes. However, standard scanners are designed to detect dark markings on a light background. For the scanner to read a "negative" bar-code, outside light must be minimized. Fortunately, these low-light conditions can be obtained easily by using an opaque covering on the scanning device.

The characteristics of the tattoo 20 can be combined with the wearer's fingerprint characteristics as well as the wearer's name, address, social security number, and any other desired information and stored on the identity database 50 as shown in FIG. 3. The name of the wearer/purchaser's financial institution, as well as current account information, are stored in the financial database 60. Once the wearer 15 has deposited sufficient funds with the financial institution, and once the identity database 50 and the financial database 60 are updated, the wearer 15 is able to conduct electronic sales transactions. After a tattoo 20 has been placed onto an appendage 30 of the wearer 15 as shown in FIG. 1, the wearer 15 is ready to practice the present invention.

All of the scanners 40, CPUs 80, as well as the identity database 50 and financial database 60 are linked together by a common databus 70 to form the network 100 as shown in FIG. 3.

The preferred method of operation, as shown in FIG. 4, is as follows:

In step 200 of FIG. 4, the purchaser selects an item for sale and initiates the sales transaction. In step 210, after the purchaser has made his/her selection, the seller's agent first scans the bar code on the article being sold in order to load information about the article and the seller for inventory and cost purposes. Next, in step 220, the tattoo 20 is scanned by scanner 40 as shown in FIG. 2. If additional identification is deemed necessary, the wearer's fingerprints may also be scanned. In step 230 of FIG. 4, the scanner 40 digitizes the image of the tattoo 20 and the purchase-cost/seller-identity information.

The scanned characteristics about the tattoo 20 and the purchase/seller information are is sent (or in computer parlance "written") from the scanner 40 to the CPU 80 via network databus 70 as shown in step 240 of FIG. 4. The CPU 80 then searches the identity database 50 for stored characteristics about tattoos in step 270. In step 250, the CPU accesses the stored characteristics of tattoos found in the identity database 50 and then compares them to the scanned characteristics of the tattoo 20. In step 260, it is determined whether or not the scanned characteristics match the stored characteristics stored in the identity database 50. If a match does not occur, step 270 and step 250 are repeated until a match is found or the scanned characteristics have been compared to all of the available stored characteristics in the identity database 50. If a match is never found, the sales transaction can be canceled. However, if a match is found, the identity of the wearer 15 can be provided to the seller because the purchaser's identity is linked to the stored characteristics of the tattoo 20 stored in the identity database 50 as shown in step 280 of FIG. 4. The seller, or, in the alternative, the simple matching and consequent identity verification, can trigger CPU 80 to query the financial database 60 to determine if the wearer 15 has sufficient funds to consummate the sales transaction as shown in step 290 of FIG. 4. If the data in the financial database 60 confirms that the wearer 15 has sufficient funds (step 300), then the sales transaction can be consummated. If the purchaser does not have sufficient funds, the seller can be so notified in step 310. Once the sale is consummated, the CPU 80 can be instructed to modify the wearer's 15 account information in the financial database 60 to reflect the results of the sales transaction as shown in step 320 of FIG. 4. Finally, the seller's account information on the financial database 60 can also be modified to reflect the results of the sales transaction as shown in step 330 of FIG. 4.

The forgoing is a description of the arrangement and the operation of an embodiment of the present invention. The scope of the present invention is considered to include the described embodiment together with others obvious to those skilled in the art.

-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), October 04, 1999


To the top of New Answers.

(Meanwhile, I'm going to take cover. I'll bet $6.66 that this thread is going to be furiously debated, receive at least 100 replies, and last for 2 weeks....)

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 04, 1999.

I'm not replying.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), October 04, 1999.

there is NO WAY IN HELL I would ever accept such an implant, EVER!! I will not sell my soul, even if starving. I will fight this to the bitter end, even if I die refusing! ALL TRUE Americans have a duty to fight this EVIL!!

-- Crono (Crono@timesend.com), October 04, 1999.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that this is a sick joke.

There was a similar hoax posted here a while ago. The inventor had to come clean when people started taking it seriously.

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), October 04, 1999.

Following technology & identification laws to their logical conclusion the implementation of this type of I.D. in conjunction with a cashless society will only be a matter of time.

Maybe not in our lifetimes.

Teach your children.

The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls.

-- Prophetess (bigbrother@orwell.com), October 04, 1999.

If this is a hoax, someone's gone to a *lot* of trouble. The link above does appear to take you to a .gov address. However ominous it sounds, though, I refuse to worry about it until after 2000-01-01, at which time a certain computer SNAFU may make the whole point moot. (I feel the same way about learning html and how to properly use the net).

-- T the C (tricia_canuck@hotmail.com), October 04, 1999.

this is absolutely silly. with fingerprints and irises why would there be a need for a tattoo? the technology for identifying individuals via their unique god given marks is already in place and being utilized. this my dears is a bunch of hooey.

-- corine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), October 04, 1999.

No, it's not a hoax! First go to US Patent Office website at:
http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html Then click on the "Full-Text Database" "Patent Number Search", which will take you to: Then type in the patent number:
5,878,155 Then click on the supplied link to the actual patent documents. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but let's try not to do the ostrich thing here. My apologies for the link foulup in the original post.

-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), October 04, 1999.

No no, you got it all wrong. Bill Gates is the Antichrist and the Internet is the way he puts his mark on us. Basically, we will reach a certain point in our society where we will have to use the Internet to get the things we need to survive. This is the way the devil will ultimately gain control of all of us.

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand (windows mouse) or on his forehead (monitor), so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark (windows), which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." (if you add up the ascii code value for Bill Gates III it equals 666) Revelation 13:16-18.

more details

-- @ (@@@.@), October 04, 1999.

It's not that difficult. Go to the US Patent and Tradmark Office website, here: http://www.uspto.gov/, hit the button on the left that says Patents, on the next page, click the link that says "Search US Patent Databases" and then the "Patent Number Search" link. Type or paste 5,878,155 into the query field, and


You be the judge of whether or not the Patent Office awards patents to hoaxes.

-- (pshannon@inch.com), October 04, 1999.

Your vet sells implantable chips for your dog; clearly,the technology is already there. I have it from a good source that the two young princes in the UK already have these chips implanted for their own safety.

-- Ann m. (hismckids@aol.com), October 04, 1999.

The last name of the guy that applied for the patent is Heeter! as in Heater, as in Hot, as in Hell?!

Just an observation.

-- DOC (DOC@...), October 04, 1999.

This technology is for real folks. I have personally tracked the "mark of the beast" technology for the last several years. WorldNetDaily.com broke this story recently about the invisible ink tattoo. What most Y2K'ers don't realize is that Revelations proves that technology continues to exists after the year 2000. In order for the mark to work, it requires world wide communications to function. We may go through a downturn for a short while with communication networks and technology, but to have world wide economic control at the individual level (a.k.a mark of the beast) computers, networks, satellites, etc., will be functioning to support this.

Furthermore, this technology is not just futurist stuff. This stuff is already being used by many different companies (Hughs Aircraft, Allied Signal, etc.). Very few people accept the logical outcome of this because it frightens them so much. It is my guess from my research that we will have the mark of the beast in less then five years, probably more like two short years from today. A number of celebrity types have already had the mark implanted in their bodies. The military has been testing this technology for several years. It's here folks - better plan on figuring a way around it.

This is exactly what I have been hinting about in my posts. Y2K is not the real issue and never was. It is the cashless society and the rise of the antichrist that is hidden in the smoke behind Y2K.

-- Ray (shusters@montanasky.net), October 04, 1999.

Current article from PC/Computing magazine:


-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), October 04, 1999.

The government has many of us on its lists. It's time we started keeping our own lists -- not only of government a*holes, but "private" a*holes people like inventors of stuff like that.

-- A (A@AisA.com), October 04, 1999.


I think you are right on the money with this one. Y2K is the first event in history that could bring in a cashless society. IT is the first globle link world wide that pulls all mankind together. I feel A.C. will come out of the E.U.Spain,Austria maybe? Due to their bloodline link to De Bouillon 1099A.D. (Knights Templar)Liberator of Jerusalem. Since Israel became a state in 1948 and regained control of Jerusalem in 1967 Matt.24 takes on a lot more meaning for the generation that see's all these things vs. 33. Most generations in the word last around 40 years. 1967+40=2007 less 7years of trib. is 2000 hummmm. Now factor in the peace talks in the middle-east, maybe Daniel 9:27 is almost here. Food for thought.

-- (RWells1069@aol.com), October 04, 1999.

R.Wells: I am coming out from under cover just long enough to ask you to PLEASE keep Spain out of your wacko delusions. And everyone else, too.

Thank you very much. And do I have any takers on my $6.66 bet?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 04, 1999.

Actually.... from MY experience, the fact that "someone" has patented this "process" could very well PREVENT this from ever being used.

Example: a while back, I read a story about someone who patented: "process for keeping a severed human head alive" or something to that effect. (sorry no URL, I might find it if you really pester me...)

He actually patented the process. He did NOT have to demonstrate that it worked. He just made it broad enough that anyone attempting to do this in any type of public forum or large institution would have to "license" this process from him.

And he had no plans of licensing it. He did all this in the hopes of PREVENTING anyone ELSE from patenting the process (which he found repugnant) and profiting from it.

So a patent can be used to delay technology as well.

Also- a patent really isn't any good unless the person patenting it plans to market or/license the process.

If Mr. Heeter ( the one taking out this patent) expects companies to beat down his door and throw money at him, he will be very disappointed. A company would rather spend $100,000 to figure out a way around your patent than to pay you $10,000 to use it.

If they can't get around it, they will sit on their hands until it expires.

A good example of this is a patent for a safty device for escalators, basically a plastic shim that allows the steps to ride flush with the wall leaving no gap for clothing or feet to get caught in (this is apparently a problem and has been for some years, but it doesn't really show up in the news much).

The inventor was on 60 minutes or something and talking about how ALL the escalator companies have completely ignored his patent, despite continuing accidents. they are all (there are only a few companies) waiting for the patent to EXPIRE. I think the patent for this is set to expire in a year or two. Then they can use it for free and tout this "great new safety device" that "just became available".

I think this guy has sufficiently covered his bases to help DELAY this technology from being used. That "might" be why he did it.....interesting? no?

-- plonk! (realaddress@hotmail.com), October 04, 1999.

Although the post is really about the tattoing technology, I tend to agree with many of the posters so far that the "mark of the beast" warnings seem more suited to the implants (patents such as awarded to Dr. Daniel Man).

I recently heard a radio broadcast by a man named Michael Bunker and, if you have RealPlayer G2 (www.real.com - the free download is well worth it), you can hear the series on the web. It deals with the tracking of citizens thru implanted chips and several other ominous topics. Here are the links (about 28 minutes each, but G2 gets you instant streaming, so no massive download to your hard drive is required):

Iridium Satellite System <LIVE>  (Aired: 04-23-99)  Part 1

Iridium Satellite System <LIVE>  (Aired: 04-26-99)  Part 2

Iridium Satellite System <LIVE>  (Aired: 04-27-99)  Part 3

Iridium Satellite System <LIVE>  (Aired: 04-28-99)  Part 4

Now, be forewarned that each of these recordings has a religious intro, so if you're some kind of total atheist or something, feel free to skip forward about 2 or 3 minutes into each broadcast. The meat of Bunker's discussion is pure technology - and I believe he not only has done his homework well, but the way the information fell into his hands is suggestive of divine providence in my opinion.

-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), October 04, 1999.

Once again folks, letting the Bible interpret itself, and not our own impressions, the mark of the Beast of Revelation is:

A System of ideology and religious governance.

Biblical symbology of "Right Hand" is action. God often uses "right hand" to symbolize importance, stature and execution of His will. God said that "Assyria is the sword of My right hand against My people" when he used them to take Israel into Northern Captivity.

Biblical symbology of "Forehead" (Both Hebrew and Greek) is "Thinking" or "thought". God in the Old Testament charged His people to train-up their children so that His laws would be a frontlet upon their foreheads...or that the laws of God would be continually on the child's mind.

Receiving the "mark" of the Beast, is to embrace the ideology of this new system, its religion and to work under it to profit, to propagate the system and to have a living.

Satan is the ultimate deceiver and countefitter. He has religionists looking for physical evidence of this mark, when a "mark" in scripture is also a "sign" or invisible spiritual imprint to God. Satan has us all looking for physical marks to eschew, when the mark is manifest in our belief-systems and our actions.

The only difference with the beast we worship now, and the Beast of Revelation is the singular global unity of the Western world into accepting and promoting this new Beast in all that is done.

I don't think anyone would willingly allow 666 to be carved into their skulls and hands unless they are Acid Metalheads....

...Rock on.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 04, 1999.

my patents are there...

4,253,377 and 4,222,308

[no drawings though...]


-- Perry Arnett (pjarnett@pdqnet.net), October 04, 1999.

Yeah, it is a real patent. Written by a Patent Lawyer...who knows the real rule is...


-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It's ALL going away in January.com), October 05, 1999.

(1) With the implanted microchip, you can also monitor location (within a suitable network of sensors). Very useful for locating someone in a large installation. Hillary would probably like that arrangement for Bill...

(2) Just read that one German company is starting to use fingerprint scanner for Internet commerce. That or retina scan should be sufficient for normal identification purposes...

(3) If fingerprint or retina scan is sufficient to identify individuals, why have more information? Obviously, because simple ID isn't enough...that someone needs to encode additional information (education, skills, political opinions, religion, "privileges," etc.).

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), October 05, 1999.

INVAR said it all; embrace the idealogy of today's churches with their varying degrees of apostacy and you wear the mark. The six- hundred-threescore-and six is the obsolete Greek letter called kizi- stigma, and appears as a "cross" (which you are warned against at the end of Hebrews 5 and beginning of Hebrews 6). Christ was hung on a "stauros" in the Greek, a pole. The cross symbolizes the solar wheel of sun worship, brought into the church in 342 A.D. by Constantine's mother, Helena, a true pagan sun worshipper if ever there was such. Would anyone be deceived by anything so blatant as a tattoo or microchip? Terry Cook has been pedaling this type of trot for years to the paranoid "so-called" Christians. Let us reason together...

-- Patrick McHnery (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 05, 1999.

Better start stocking up BIG TIME... 7 years worth as I reckon.

-- Homeschooling Grandma (mlaymon@glenn-co.k12.ca.us), October 05, 1999.

Will acknowledge that I'm not a learned Bible scholar nor am I able to completely comprehend Revelations, but believe this is one area that I don't need to worry. The mark of the beast will only be given to non-Christians, and since my heart has been given to God I won't be receiving the mark. Now, wish I could stop worrying about protecting my family and how much more I need to do to get ready physically for things to come. Need some comic relief, laughter is good for the soul!

-- claurann (claurann@aol.com), October 05, 1999.


I think you better reread...all will have to make a choice. It will separate the wheat from the chaf.......no pretrib for me...

ps Invar..7th day adventist? better look up the hebrew word for mark....it means an actual mark.

-- More Dinty Moore (dac@ccrtc.com), October 05, 1999.

Wake up people your social security number is the mark of the beast.

-- Daryll (twincrk@hotmail.com), October 05, 1999.

More Dinty Moore

Are you PRE-WRATH as it relates to the rapture of the church body?

Everyone needs to see what we are promised it's not pre., mid.,or post rapture, But prewrath see 1 Thess.5:9 and Romans 5:9. The mark is a physical mark, not some acceptance with the mind as it relates to the goverments social security number,or a computer monitor or mouse as mentioned above. Just as the army of Alexander the great took is mark to show who they served, so the antichrist will demand the same. 666 physically to be on the forehead or right hand. Yes, it may be in the form of chiping (microchips under the skin) which of course would include GPS for tracking you. One last thought for all to consider. After reading Revelation chapters 6 and 7, carefully note which of the seals is said to be GOD'S (The 7th ) Which means the previous 6 seals are just the fallout on all who live on the earth which is governed by fallen man. Pay close attention to what occurs when the 5th seal is opened. Brothers and sisters in the lord are being persecuted even now, not by the lord but by evil man. So are we any better than the first century of saints that were put to death for their faith? NO. Remember the rain falls on both the JUST and the UNJUST.


-- (Rwells1069@aol.com), October 05, 1999.

claurann: If your soul needs some fun and frolic, you need ... Mudbello!! Its a wonderful, fun dance that combines the exotic worlds of belly dancing AND mudwrestling into one hilarious, wholesome, fun loving experience. Look for it to come to your town soon.

On a more serious note for such serious people........ Anyone know anything about David Wilkerson's "THE VISION" book, published back in 1974, where he predicted that the world would undergo hard times financially and morally? Lots of it based on Revelations? And does anyone know if Wilkerson is still around, and whether he thinks Y2K is going to be part of that? (He predicted that a huge number of small businesses would go bankrupt, which would sure fit.)

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 05, 1999.

Patrick, AMEN. Someone who actually studied and "proved all things." 'Tis better to be Berean in practice than Laodecian in attitude.


No, not 7th day Adventist. Not part of an "Organized Religion" belief-system. Never had fellowship with Adventists as some of their doctrinal practices don't square with scripture. They keep the Sabbath correctly, but not the Holy Days.

As far as the definition of "Mark" in Revelation, the Greek word for "mark" is charagma which translated as best it can into English is a "Badge of Servitude" or "willing service under law". It can also be a physical mark or brand, which may be imparted so as others can view your adherance to their system. But as far as God is concerned, the mark is a spiritual imprint. An acceptance of an ideology. Ancient Israel had a "mark" on it, symbolizing their nation as belonging to the Most High...it was also a sign to Him of their willing obedience to His Laws. The mark was the keeping of the Sabbath and Holy Days. They were a sign to the Almighty...and and identity mark.

This is why the Ten Northern Tribes of Israel are considered lost...they no longer possess the mark of obedience, and therefore their historical identity.

The Jews today, descendants of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, have continued to keep the Commandment, and retained their identity.

In scriptural context, a mark or sign has always been of the religious/ideological kind. No different than a "sign" or "mark" of a Traditional Christian, or even Conservatives and Liberals. Their speech, mannerisms, practices and adornments are signs to one-another of their affiliations.

I will concur with Patrick, that the apostacies of various religious systems have deceived us into accepting traditions that are not of God, but of Paganism. A religious-political ideology , and its acceptance and practice...through both spiritual and physical means is what the mark found in Revelation is.

Everyone's looking for a physical mark, when they have altready accepted the "mark" by believing in a corrupt system that rewards them for obedience, and ridicules and excoriates them for disobedience.

But in the spirit of "reasoning together" Mr . Rwells, a few disagreements.

>>>"Everyone needs to see what we are promised it's not pre., mid.,or post rapture, But prewrath see 1 Thess.5:9 and Romans 5:9. "<<<

First, "Rapture" is not scriptural. It appears nowhere in the Bible. What you classify as "Rapture" as Peter describes it is in Fact the "Resurrection" of the "Firstfruits" or Saints of God, both living and dead. Peter is describing the change as it will take place among the living Saints of God being Resurrected to meet the Triumphant and returning Christ in the air above Jerusalem, where they will descend with Him and Stand with the Lamb on the Mount. This event takes place AFTER the tribulation. His saints are saved from His Wrath, not from Tribulation, which Jesus told His followers we would have.

It is a Satanic deception to believe that the Saints of God are going to be Zapped out of here before the tribulation. The only thing that His saints are sealed and protected from is God's Wrath on an unrepentant mankind. Before the Wrath of God, you have the wrath of Satan on God's Church and His people. This is the Tribulation. What you are assuming is that the Tribulation and Wrath of God are the same thing. They are not. Go back and re-read the Revelation to John. The tribulation is the reign of the Beast and the persecution of the saints. It is the height of hubris, and misunderstanding to think that the Apostles and Saints of God during the first Century having all been mayrtred and persecuted save John, would be the only ones to suffer death for belief. Jesus said during the "last days", His sheep would be "Delivered up to the synouguoges" and that they will kill you and think they are doing God service.

>>>"The mark is a physical mark, not some acceptance with the mind as it relates to the goverments social security number,or a computer monitor or mouse as mentioned above. Just as the army of Alexander the great took is mark to show who they served, so the antichrist will demand the same. "<<<

You assume incorrectly. In scriptural context, you first must embrace the ideology and practice before being branded. Only those that "Accept" the ideology will be "marked". They will embrace this "beast" in order to conduct commerce, thus allowing themselves to be marked. Also, the Antichrist in the final-typology of revelation is a "Religious System", not just one man.

>>>"666 physically to be on the forehead or right hand. "<<<

I invite you to read every verse in scripture where "Right hand" and "Forehead" are used. They symbolize action, and thought. Right hands were used to pronounce blessings, greetings, fighting and praise. Foreheads were symbolic of ideology, thought and worship.

">>>Yes, it may be in the form of chiping (microchips under the skin) which of course would include GPS for tracking you. "<<<

You're speculating on what it "might" be, instead of what scripture already reveals what it means.

>>>"One last thought for all to consider. After reading Revelation chapters 6 and 7, carefully note which of the seals is said to be GOD'S (The 7th ) Which means the previous 6 seals are just the fallout on all who live on the earth which is governed by fallen man. Pay close attention to what occurs when the 5th seal is opened. Brothers and sisters in the lord are being persecuted even now, not by the lord but by evil man. So are we any better than the first century of saints that were put to death for their faith? NO. Remember the rain falls on both the JUST and the UNJUST."<<<

Exactly WHY the "Rapture" in the popularly received tradition is false. Gos will allow Satan to be loosed upon His people, and persecution shall come by force. He is not going to "save" them out of it by zapping them to heaven before all hell breaks out on His people. The Tribulation comes first, followed by the Wrath of God and the final seals and vials poured out on an unrepentant mankind.

I do not know times or dates, nor do I engage in placing definitives, but I can discern the Signs of the Times, and we are on the verge of great tribulation for our people.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 06, 1999.

The entire rapture doctrine came from the deathbed hallucination of one Margaret McDonald and was turned into doctrine by two "preachers" named Norton & Darby. The hideous nature of this teaching was to make people so heavenly minded they are no earthly good. You'd think the word would show up at least once in Scripture - not there. Oh I know, we'll be "caught up in the air"... this was a Greek idiom for being "seized in the breath of life," can we say "RUACH" class?

-- Patrick McHenry (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 06, 1999.

Well, we've slipped off the main index, so I've just posted a < href="http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg.tcl?msg_id=001X6w">continuation along with a few comments.

I don't have time to toss in my "rapture - if, when, or not" position right now, but perhaps I'll be able to later in the new thread.

En agape ....

-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), October 06, 1999.

Hmm. Sorry about that. Here's the link.


-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), October 06, 1999.

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