Sir hoff,

Y2K isn't about a % of errors. It's about business decisions. Choice if you will. Please see my post here:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Vci

Our choice may not work. I may be unemployed. Myself, well, I've got some pretty good firends in management positions. Some are even pollys! Some, if not all, may survive.

What about the operators, and customer service people, and the data entry girls, and sales, accounting, management, hell, the receptionist? We may all be out of a job. And let me strss the point here Sir Hoff.

Our customers are counting on us doing this. If we can't produce a product for them, they will, and I'll guanartee it, be in deep shit. They have no other plans. They have no other service company that can do the job, in the time needed. Our #1 client has at least 10 times as many people as we do.

I understand your point Hoff, I just don't agree about the number of problems that will show up. Let's just put that behind us. Do you understand my point? The latest and greatest technology can't do the job, if you haven't planned very well, and I mean very. Old systems have been developed and enhanced for many years. It's just not that easy to figure out what they are really doing, when you're looking at hundreds, if not thousands, of programs. It takes time. We've been working in it for years. We figured this was the best choice. It may not turn out that way.

Am I the only one? Not from what I see on this forum. Oh, go ahead, find another tech forum and bring it back here. Find one about day-to-day problems. So what?

Look at the big picture Sir Hoff. Look at it from my point of view.

Tick... Tick... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 02, 1999

Answers

90 days.

Y2K CANNOT BE FIXED!

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.~net), October 02, 1999.

And where is Flint?

OK, I take it back. I'm not tired of the damned debate. Let's rock & roll... <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 02, 1999.

Sysman:

Somehow I don't see looking at your own little piece of the pie as looking at the big picture. You remind me of an internet friend who was working on Y2k and their deadline was June 30. He was convinced they wouldn't make it and feared for both HIS company and the clients they serve. Well, after weeks of 12/hour shifts seven days a week, they DID make it. One month later he and 5,999 others were offered a "take it or leave anyway" early retirement deal.

Companies make business decisions all the time. Most times they have a direct impact on employment. When BP purchased Amoco Oil, lives were changed forever. There was even talk recently of closing the Amoco refinery in Whiting, Indiana. They decided not to close, but if they had, an entire city of people would go out of business. My guess is that 99% of the people who live in Whiting survive off the refinery. If they don't work AT the refinery, they cater to the workers there. Reality struck in Nocona, Texas recently after Footwear Management merged Justin Boots with Nocona and Tony Lama. I spent perhaps 3 years contracting for Justin in the past 5 years. I got to know lots of folks from the manufacturing plant through designers and salesmen. The entire company at Nocona was closed. The entire processing plant in Fort Worth was closed. The decision was made to relocate the manufacturing to El Paso (home of Tony Lama), maintaining only one other plant in Missouri. Lots of the folks involved in these mergers had both bread-winners working at the same place.

Your company may/may not make it, but it seems to me that you have some input into the success or failure on this one. You have more empowerment than the folks I mentioned above. Are the folks remaining dedicated to seeing the company make the deadline? Are you seeing motivation and a willingness to go the extra mile? Have you looked at your files/databases and determined which will be affected? Have you then done scans on which applications use these? Have you then scanned the programs called by these applications to determine which of THOSE will be affected? There are lots of ways in which applications can be quickly reviewed and concentration placed on the areas of most import. I'd be glad to share with you some tricks I've learned along the road. Heck, if you're running VSE under VM, I'd even be glad to help with the endeavor. It sure beats doing nothing. If you're running VSE native, that would too closely resemble work. [grin] Let me know if I can be of any assistance (free of charge.)

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), October 03, 1999.

Anita,

It's a little after 1:00 AM, I'm still loged-on at the office, since 7:30 PM, on a Sudday might. Was AT the office yesterday, for about 6 hours, on a Saturday. I'm sure I'll have at least a couple of 14-16 hour days next week. We, ALL OF US, are giving it 150%.

We started looking at the project in 1995, and in 1996 deceided that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to "patch" the code. Heavy use of dates? How about date-driven! Dates used for everything, which quarter to file a transaction, when to delete an item, computing differences and percetnages based on number of days, you name it! And I forgot to mention, the entire "front-end" system is also ours, mosthy CLIPPER programs. All the data-entry screens, local reports, etc. At least 100 programs (an educated guess) for this one client. In addition to the "back-end" mainframe system. I know all about the CENTURY option in CLIPPER, so save it.

Have we looked at the database? We have torn the database apart, backwards, inside out, upside down, and are still trying to put it together. We know the data better than the client, and this is the problem. In my corner of the world.

Want to know what I did at my job before this one? I was systems programmer on a "degree day" forcasting system. It may be the same one that tells your fuel oil company when to deliver oil to your house. Now, should we talk about dates?

Want to know what I did before that? I worked for IBM. If you run VSE, you maybe using some of my code!

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 04, 1999.

Anita,

PS - Sorry about the typos - been a long day.

I hear what you're saying, and I don't want it to sound like we've given up. But failure is a real possibility.

The project manager has been in charge for 17 years. A couple of the programmers on the team have been here 20+ years, and a few others 10-15. The VP in charge, 26 years. We know all the tricks. I appreciate your suggestions, but we know it all too well. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 04, 1999.

Sysman -- Just a quick note to thank you for sweating bullets to try to fix the mess. Some biz-s will succeed, some won't. Don't lose heart. And don't forget to make your own personal preps -- if your company goes down, they aren't going to be fixing your beans for you.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), October 04, 1999.

Sorry for not checking back sooner.

Yes, business decisions are made daily. Some are good, some are bad, some cause companies to fail.

Not going to presume to make statements about your situation, or your company's. People have to deal with changing situations; especially in IT. Know alot of people that haven't worked in the last 3-4 months.

BTW, as long as we're comparing notes. Haven't seen my wife and kids for over a week. Thursday/Friday was a combined straight 39 hours. Got some sleep Friday night; Saturday was only 17 hours. Yesterday (Sunday) was another 16 hours. This morning (Monday), logged in to check on the overnight jobs, and catching a flight home. Rest of the week is more of the same, but at least able to log in from the house.

Been doing this at intervals now for the last 3-4 years. It's part of the job. Some people deal with it; some don't.

-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), October 04, 1999.

Howdy Hoff,

Well, you've sure got me beat with hours, THIS week, but I know the feeling. At least half of my weekends for the past year. Heck, summer '98 was 13 weekends in a row, about half both days. I was one of the suckers that had to support production, and it's annual round of "normal" changes, on the old system, while everyone else was working on the new!

What I'm saying here Hoff, is that Y2K is more than x number of failures. There are many other effects, beyond just changing the code. But let's stick with "code" for now.

This is a financial system, where dates are used more than most other systems. Everything is a date and a number, or a date and dollar amount. Even the text fields have a date tagged on, as in "date of last review," or dates of the last 4 reviews for that matter. It is an exception.

But let's look at the other system. Yes, the "degree day" part is also an exception, but what about the rest of that system, the "accounting" part. Date when the delivery was actually made, date when the payment was made, calculated interest if the poor guy missed the due date, 30, 60, 90 day ATB, budget plan due dates, service call dates, and the date when the service guy actually showed up! Dates everywhere! Is this an exception? I don't think so.

We don't need an break-down of the percentage of computing that is date related. Every system is different. We already know that the "total" is a small part. We already know that the number of dates is small, compared to numbers, text, dollars, and all the other types of data. Used for all kinds of important things, more just sequencing type stuff though. But even "small" is a pretty big number.

I think it was MVI that said something like this:

"Dates are everywhere, from the moment that you log on to the computer, as in YOUR ACCOUNT HAS EXPIRED. HAVE A NICE DAY."

I gotta run. Later.

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 04, 1999.

PS:

Slould be "more THAN just sequencing" (all these years on a keyboard, and I still can't type).

Thanks for the support BigDog, and yes, I'm ready. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 04, 1999.

Sysman:

I'm, personally, motivated by a need to succeed. The possibility of failure isn't even in my vocabulary. If I'm hired to do a job and find it tedious, I develop ways to make it more interesting...compete with myself. If I'm hired to do a job and find my skillset lacking, I spend all my off-hours developing that skill-set. The one thing I WON'T accept is failure....and, fortunately, I haven't experienced failure yet.

In contrast to MY philosophy, you stated: "But failure is a real possibility." I suspect (although do not know) that this motivates you as much as MY philosophy motivates ME. For this reason, I suspect that your firm WILL make it....if EVERY team member at your firm is so diligent.

I've been introduced to this philosophy twice in the past two months. First off, the man I live with took a one-month contract at a local university on Y2k. After two weeks of working 12-13 hour days, he had completed the coding and they threw it into production. There was no time to test and I listened to all the fears. The day after, I learned that everything had worked fine. NO testing. This doesn't exactly sound like the metrics advised by some, does it?

In addition, I have a daughter who is attending college after being out of the system for 2 years. I've heard what I thought to be every excuse in the book for failure. "There just isn't TIME. I have ALL this due by Thursday!" Then again, I saw that young woman everywhere I went (it seemed) with her nose in a book, or a pencil crossing paper. The FEAR of failure motivated her, and the day after she came home beaming, stating, "I got an A!"

My original offer still holds if you need me.

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), October 04, 1999.

Anita, unfortunately, bad computer code does not care about your Can Do attitude. It is too late, it has been too late, it is getting all the later.

88 days.

Y2K CANNOT BE FIXED!

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), October 04, 1999.

Jack:

I admire your tenacity, and your mantra has ALWAYS put a smile on my lips.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), October 04, 1999.

Anita,

Once again, it's after 1:00 AM, but it's not a late day at the office. I did my 11 hours, and went out to party with a few old friends. Don't worry, we had a "driver" that had 7-up all night.

Once again, I appreciate your input, but what can I say. My job just happens to be a hobby that I get paid for. I love this stuff. It's what I do when I get home from work.

Once again Anita, I thank you for your offer of help. But it really is too late. It would take you the rest of the year just to understand the system. Heck, 3 months is just about average for one of our new programmers, to get a handle on what's going on.

Once again, we see this problem from a different point of view. We haven't thrown in the towel. We may be successful. We sure hope so, it's real nice to have a pay check every week. This one fact alone does tend to light a fire under one's butt. I'm not worried about myself. I have enough supplies, and cash, that I will survive for a couple of years, with no income. I have friends in the business. It's the other people, the data entry girl, the customer service person, yea, even the receptionist that I'm worried about. This forum is well known at my office, but I don't see anyone that I recognize here from my office. Maybe a lurker? I sure hope so. Some people just DGI, no matter how much you try to make them. They hear it everyday at work, we're in trouble because of Y2K. But they figure that we are the exception. They figure that the rest of the world has the problem under control. And if not, it will be, 3 days later.

From my experience in this business, that's just not true. Maybe I'm the exception. I sure hope so.

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 05, 1999.