I had a short conversation yesterday that I'll file under the "How to win friends" section (Snark).

This person told me he could never own a gun because he is a 'pacifist'. I replied that he not telling the truth.

I asked him: "If three men broke into your home and you heard them downstairs dicussing how they were going to rob you and rape your wife, what would you do?"

He replied "I'd call 911 and tell my wife to hide".

To which I said: " So, you are willing to pay someone else (the police) to carry guns, use violence, and take the risk of bodily harm, but you won't do the same in your own defense. You sir, are NOT a pacifist. You are a COWARD. You have no problem with violence and force, you just don't want to dirty your own hands."

You'd think I had kicked him in a very special place.

You know, I have never in my whole life met a real pacifist. Have you?

-- Art Welling (artw@lancnews.infi.net), September 29, 1999

Answers

WAY TO GO ART!!

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), September 29, 1999.

Art,

I like your style...

-- BiGG (supersite@acronet.net), September 29, 1999.

So, in order to be a "real" pacifist one must be totally pacifistic? I disagree. Being a pacifist is a matter of advocating and believing in non-violence. It doesn't require absolute forbodence anymore than being a Christian requires absolute adherance to the teachings of Christ.

Good thing about that, because by those standards there are no true Christians either, or Buddhists, or Muslims, or true believers of any type.

I am a pacifist only to the extent that I believe that using violence generally creates more problems than it solves. That doesn't mean I'd never be violent or that I think nobody else should ever be violent. That guy you were talking to is a pacifist to some extent, but as you pointed out he isn't a total pacifist because he would expect others to use violence to protect him and his.

What belief system(s), if any, do you hold totally Art?

-- Gus (y2kk@usa.net), September 29, 1999.

Thanks Art. I needed that... ME.

I thought of myself as a pacifist for years. No guns for the kiddies to play with. Wouldn't even ACCEPT my dad's guns when he died. But Y2K has got me taking on a lotta responsibilities I had formerly paid others to do. Killed my first rabbit for meat with my own hands recently. Took a concealed weapon class, and am picking up my first gun TODAY. [yes, I know.. time is short..]. Hubby is a DWGI and makes fun of his gun-packin' momma, but I will do what ever it takes to make it through this. ME... the responsibility trail ends here.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 29, 1999.

I doubt there will be many pacifists, real or otherwise, by June of next year. They'll either be dead or they'll have accepted the reality of having to use violence in the defense of those they care for.

-- cody (cody@y2ksurvive.com), September 29, 1999.

I'm a "pacifist" first, then a "Mamma Bear".

I never have and never will use force of any sort against anyone.....FIRST.

On the other hand, no one ever has or ever will use force against me or my loved ones without facing the MEANEST, MADDEST, NO-HOLDS-BARRED MAMMA GRISLEY BEAR!!

Does that mean I'm a violence prone anti-social pervert or something?

Well, so be it. I'm comfortable with that.....and my kids are and WILL BE safe.

'Nuff said.

-- Sheila (sross@bconnex.net), September 29, 1999.

Gus,

As Christians, aren't we supposed to be like Christ? Isn't Christ the son of God, ergo God embodied? God is definately NOT a pacifist, HE wiped out the entire world at one point, because of their wickedness. God even declares himself as a jealous and vengefull God.

That bieng said, I hardly thing that God would damn you to Hell for defending you and/or your family from evil. Even if it meant killing.

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), September 29, 1999.

Good point, Art. 911 is for cowards.

-- (raise@the.flag), September 29, 1999.

Amen CygnusXI...

I actually feel sorry for any moron that tries to break into my house... They would suffer from multi-caliber wounds...

No Art, I can't say I have ever met a TRUE pacifist. Myself, I do not go looking for trouble, but I will finish what some else starts...

Got ammo???

"I freely give my ammunition to anyone who wants it... one bullet at a time..." - yours truly

growlin' at the TV...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), September 29, 1999.

Me?

I'm just a peace-loving grandma.

Who is proficient with a 'peacekeeper'.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 29, 1999.

Gus,

You are correct. There really are few absolutes. Nor should there be in my opinion. On the other hand honesty is a pretty cool thing to have around.

A 'real' pacifist....... well, yes. A 'pacifist' is one who has renounced violence. The guy I was talking to should have said 'mostly pacifistic' or 'dislikes violence'. Both terms would have been far more accurate, especially from one who is trying to claim moral high ground by saying people who own guns and accept violence as an option are lacking in morals.

Perhaps it's a matter of degree. You say you don't have to adhere strictly to the teachings of Christ to be a Christian. It happens I agree with you. Now suppose Joseph Stalin made the statement that he was a Christian... it's a matter of degree. His actions proved he was NOT such a creature. Now suppose my mother in law said the same thing. Despite her problems with honesty I would believe her. In each case they would fail to live up the image they claim, but in different degree's.

So it is with a 'pacifist' who happily pays someone else to use violence on his behalf while claiming to be morally above such things. That is not pacifism, it's hypocracy. It's the equivalent of saying his feces does not stink as he goes through life with a cloths pin on his nose.

"I am a pacifist" is not the same thing as "I think violence should never be anything but a last resort".

"My feces does not stink" is not the same as "I prefer not to smell such things".

"What belief system(s), if any, do you hold totally Art? -- Gus (y2kk@usa.net), September 29, 1999. "

I believe that principles cannot be comprimised. Once you comprimise they are no longer principles but matters of circumstance. Example: A man states he is a "Man of principle and it's against his principles to steal". This man then turns around and keeps the extra five dollars in change he saw a cashier give him by mistake. His absolute statement is now bunk on both counts.

I believe my wife and children deserve my support and loyalty to the extreme. If that means saving their lives at the expense of another, so be it. I think violence is to be avoided, but not at 'all costs', therefor I do not claim to be a 'pacifist' no matter how much I dislike conflict.

Very little is absolute in life. Honesty is graded on a sliding scale, much like pornography.

Much like Pornography, "I knows it whens I sees it".

-- Art Welling (artw@lancnews.infi.net), September 29, 1999.

Hold on, folks.

I hunt deer with high powered rifles. I know very well what bullets do to flesh, so I will never shoot at a human except as a very last resort.

It is the job of the police to arrest criminals for trial and punishment by the courts. They are trained to do this, and they have the experience to know what kinds of dangers they face.

If you are barricaded in your house and an attack is imminent, you may be forced to shoot in self defense, but fortunately these occurences are rare.

I used to live in Cleveland Heights, Ohio, a high-crime area at least by comparison to where I live now. One morning around 3 am I was awakened by bumping and thumping in the foyer down the hall. Then I heard glass break, then the sound of the door opening.

Stark naked, I got a 12 gauge shotgun and stepped out of my room to see what was up. I was groggy and still half asleep. I looked out in the foyer, and there was one of my neighbors collapsed halfway in the doorway, drunk out of his skull. The houses on the street look somewhat similar, and my neighbor in his stupor was confused, his house was three doors down or so. He thought he had forgotten his key so he broke out the glass in the door to let himself in. The next day he didn't remember being re-directed to his own house by a naked man with a gun, a sight which surely should have caused him to swear off the booze. He replaced the glass etc. and we got along fine afterwards.

The point is, if I had taken a shoot first attitude, I might have killed someone who was not a threat, merely drunk- a condition I have been in before myself more than once ( I just stay home, though!)

The more familiar I become with firearms, the more careful I get. The second amendment is a precious right, one of the ways we can best preserve it is to be aware of the gravity of the consequences of their misuse. Once that trigger is pulled, there is no undoing what you've just done.

I am as much of a 'gun nut' as anyone, I am NRA and GOA. But I often wince at what I consider to be overly agressive and misinformed rhetoric on this forum. We should be more circumspect, we all abhor violence, and gun control is an emotional issue. I myself have been equally guilty of 'shooting from the lip'. But more conscious and responsible attitudes will help dispel the anti-gunner's contention that we are all violent or crazy people, that guns and gun owners are inherently evil or dangerous.

Well, that's my 2 cents worth for the morning.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), September 29, 1999.

Christians with concerns about the use of force should remember that the Israelites were told that they were to "turn the other cheek" in one situation, but were free to kill without fear of vengeance in another. If you killed a thief in your home in the dead of night, for example, you were considered to have taken prudent action.

Christanity does not condone violence, but it does not forbid it entirely either. Justification must be accounted for, and God being the understanding and flexible being that He is would likely overlook a transgression of violence if the reason was to protect oneself against imminent harm from another.

Even the law of the land recognizes the accceptable use of force. In Florida, for example, Fl. statute 776.012-776.018 deal with the use of force and what conditions justify what levels of force. All states have similar statutes that make similar definitions. (In FL, for example, it is perfectly legal to clobber a punk that you catch vandalizing someone else's car so long as you don't try to kill the punk. If he pulls a knife or gun, however, you could cap him and be free from legal action as you were suddenly defending yourself against the possibility of death by another's hand.) Check your state and local laws for the details on what you're entitled to do and not do under what circumstances.

Of course, the laws mean squat if Martial Law is declared...

That well-armed guy that fights a lot better than looks would indicate, known only as...

-- OddOne (mocklamer_1999@yahoo.com), September 29, 1999.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), September 29, 1999.

There are absolutes. A = A. You are alive. Therefore what iis good for life is always good. Read Ayn Rand. Her philosophy is called Objectivism.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), September 29, 1999.

" If you would have peace, prepare for war." From the Roman General Tacitus. Good advice then, good advice now.

-- kozak (kozak@formerusaf.guv), September 29, 1999.

Similarly, most people consider themselves fairly honest, in that they would never go next door and swipe their neighbor's TV, jewelry, cash, whatever. Yet they have no problem in voting for a politician who will hire someone (IRS, local sheriff, etc.) to do that for them.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 29, 1999.

Yeah Odd One. And if Martial Law is declared, it might be wise to know Martial Arts. Or at least Pass the katana, please.

-- Kalanianaole (hwy@hwy.whatever), September 29, 1999.

Rather than a katana, I prefer my claymore. But both are intimidating if you know how to use them...

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), September 29, 1999.

The thin veneer of civility in which we find ourselves is only maintained by a working comode,expect the yuppie naysaying generation of entitlement to turn mucho ugly when the shit comes down,hmmm I think I'll pick up some more #4 buckshot and 165 grain .45 acp hydrashock before going home tonite.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), September 30, 1999.