I thought these were both interesting.

Nazi, Fascist, Totalitarian, American What's the Difference?

http://www.thewinds.org/arc_editorials/government/nazi5-97.html

Nazi Gun Law in the United States

http://www.ptialaska.net/~swampy/interest/firearms_1.html

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 24, 1999

Answers

Nazi, Fascist, Totalitarian, American What's the Difference?

Nazi Gun Law in the United States

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), September 24, 1999.

The threat of Communism goes mainstream with Dr. Laura.

The doc has been asking her audience what the h*ll is going on with our schools, our libraries, our universities, our stalwart professional associations, etc., ad nauseum.

An astute listener faxed this into her. Dr. Laura is now waking up to the signs of communism in America and her 20 million listeners are getting an earful.

http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

found at Dr. Laura's website here:

http://www.drlaura.com/letters/index.html?mode=view&id=392

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), September 24, 1999.

As a little baby I almost was processed by this particular NS = National Socialist = Nazi program. "Programs" still frighten me.

-- Not Again! (seenit@ww2.com), September 24, 1999.

It is sad that people either outright refuse to, or are afraid to, consider the true condition of our country. The greatness of our heritage will be forgotten because we have refused to walk circumspectly as our forefathers did. Those who continue to wrap themselves in the red, white, and blue, while ignoring the ample evidence of our ghastly condition, dishonor the memory of those who sacrificed much to establish this country.

" For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. And there is no one who calls on Thy name, who arouses himself to take hold of Thee; for Thou hast hidden Thy face from us, and delivered us into the power of our iniquities. (Isaiah 64:6-7)

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), September 24, 1999.

Sorry. I forgot the link to the program:

http://de.news.yahoo.com/990924/3/abtx.html

-- Not Again! (seenit@ww2.com), September 24, 1999.

Can you help those of us who are German-impaired, Not Again?

It looked like some sort of rally in Berlin related to the War.

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), September 24, 1999.

It seems to be about the Nazi "euthenasia" program, which involved sterilizing and killing first mentally retarded people, then the disabled ("useless eaters") and quickly moving on to hated racial and political groups: jews, slavs, gypsies, homosexuals... It happens in steps. Each step is rationalized, and accepted by the population. For each step there is a carrot and a stick: the reward if you do support the government, and the threat if you disagree - or, god help you, resist.

By the way, did anyone catch the story on the incinerators installed in the wake of Hurricane Floyd, to burn the pig, cattle and chicken carcasses? They have two active, and are working on a third. They can burn 200 TONS of bodies per HOUR. I'll bet a lot of our old Nazis are sitting around (living out of a CIA "briefcase pension") wistfully thinking "...if we'd only had a few of those..." Poor guys. Their sons are too busy to call them - too busy PLANNING YOUR FUTURE.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

The United States of America, at one time the greatest hope for the world, is like all superpowers before its time, in decline and decay. Y2K really doesn't matter, when taken in context to the "big picture."

Millenium maddness, rumors of war, earthquakes, pestilence, etc.etc. these are just small parts of a larger equation. For the Christian masses out there reading this right now...is your faith in Jesus Christ going to be waived and changed to disbelief if he doesn't come in the next 5 years? In the next 10? 15?

Suppose that the second coming isn't for another 100 years. In the meantime, the U.S.A. will continue to spiral downward. Many of you now have unborn grandchildren, in that your small children have not yet reached adulthood, and started families of their own. This is something that is projected to be years from now for you.

If, for those of you of Christian faith, the second coming isn't for another 300 years, I can with a degree of almost certainty predict that your children and grandchildren are going to be raised illiterates very similar to the masses that currently reside in many countries in the middle east.

Their thought processes are going to be short circuited by poor nutrition as small children, the opportunity for a proper education will have been lost, and they will be controlled by a totalitarian ruler that demands absolute control.

Between Y2K, wars, earthquakes and the like, along with our own nations moral demise, our grandchildren will inherit the wind. It is not something that you or I did to cause this. Every great nation had its glory days, afterwhich it became a 3rd world nation for a time. We as a nation have peaked, and our glory days are a memory fading fast.

-- Seer N. Revelator (aware@whats-happening.now), September 24, 1999.

This OT thread should be deleted. There is nothing relating to Y2K. It starts with two articles, one of which appears to be an apology for Nazis (since they're not so much worse that we are), the second of which tries to smear gun control advocates as Nazis. So which is it? And what is Dr. Laura's take on Y2K?

I think that Mumzie is a female impersonator. No real woman would be so obsessed with guns, militia, and Clinton's sex life.

-- sheesh (lurker@nowhere.non), September 24, 1999.

Sheesh,

Thanks for speaking up on behalf of morons. The conversation was getting pretty one-sided there for awhile.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

Please delete. Just another post trying to equate fascism with communisim. They are not one is the same but ignorant please want you to believe it. PLEASE DELETE

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), September 24, 1999.

do you think deleting my posts, will void GODS warnings?

-- poor moderator, (dogs@zianet.com), September 24, 1999.

Y2kDave,

You know, when you ostriches put your head in the sand, I just think it's kind of funny. But when I see you trying to jam everyone else's head in the sand with you, well, I just think that's very bad form.

Why don't you go to another thread and bother someone else?

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

Liberty those incinerators were MOBILE! That's the part that jumped out at me. MOBILE INCINERATORS!

Y2k Dave you are a Hypocrite if I had the time Right now I would go find the post where you are crying OT OT and how nothing not y2k related should be allowed. Then you start posting all this stuff about George W. and you even posted something today.

You are a commie loving socialist coming to get your gun head stuck up Klintons ass dickhead hypocrite!

-- The Count of Meijer Crisco (40@cansof.course), September 24, 1999.

Easy there, Criso. He's not worth getting your hands dirty.

About the incinerators, the Nazis did that too: they "brought the camps to the people" in that there were special units who went into the countryside and rounded up jews and shot them. But with mobile incinerators you don't need to dig any holes.

You know Crisco, people know this, and I just keep shaking my head and wondering: what good fairy do they think shook her pixie dust down on America to make our country immune from the abuse-of-power syndrome we see over and over again throughout history? Do they think Nazism was the result of eating too much saurkraut? What don't they understand about the death of the 4th Amendment; the incessant attacks on the 2nd Amendment; Waco; the money-burning, utterly ineffective, constitution-trampling "war on drugs" which only serves to create and maintain a police state? It's happening NOW. Police are being militarized, trained as domestic invaders with license-to-kill, NOW. You are no longer "secure in your person and effects" NOW. And they say "we can't say what will happen, for sure..." Ostriches.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001L8b

There it is y2kdave where you cry "OT OT" then why do you post about GWB and cry OT here?

Liberty

The people hear " the MOBILE INCINERATORS were brought in to destroy expired livestock in order to prevent the spread of disease" and they think thats a good thing.

They just don't realize one day *they* maybe the expired livestock and the .gov may want to prevent the spread of their *freedom disease*

That freedom disease thing is hereditary. I got a bad case of it!

-- The Count of Meijer Crisco (40@cansof.course), September 24, 1999.

sheesh...

Off topic? Only slightly. The definition of Y2K might be very narrow in a technical sense, but the potential ramifications may be extremely far reaching. Are you a seer who can see and guarantee that there will be no connection to defense (gun laws?)?

I already know that you must be a male with tunnelvision, diminished brain capacity and a red neck. I suppose that you think we poor women folk shouldn't bother our little heads with big he-man topics like guns, militias and the warped sexual proclivities of our Fondling Father.

I've given birth to seven children, two of them were over twelve pounds, NATURALLY (translation for sheesh: no C-section, nothing for pain). So don't tell me what women should or shouldn't be interested in! I do care VERY MUCH about whether my sons are drafted into a weakened and compromised military led by a traitorous person.

Next time you eat too many beans, blow your gas off on another forum.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

Right here with you Mumsie!

-- Tiara (sorceress5@hotmail.com), September 24, 1999.

Mumzie -

you have every right to be as pigheaded and dense as any man. I just expected more humanity and intelligence of a woman.

don't believe the distortions and lies on those militia sites.

-- sheesh (lurker@nowhere.non), September 24, 1999.

Mumsie, I'm liking you more each post. Keep up your thoughts. They are most definitely worthy (in my book)....12 lbs? and no saddle block? Good god woman. That's gotta place you in the hall a fame in this day and age. My respects!

Thank you.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), September 24, 1999.

I fear the the John Birch society is attempting to take over this forum with their conspiricy, commie behind every tree thought control bullshit. I post OT now that I see the synops have lost control this board to you assholes. Word do not hurt me in the least especially from the likes of you. Go get um al-d.

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), September 24, 1999.

Mumsie,

>...two of them were over twelve pounds...

Is that 12 pounds, both of them together, or... I've always had respect for you, but now I'm in AWE.

Y2k Dave,

Stop. Just stop a minute. What if there were some truth to the point of view you reflexively ridicule? Are you an independent thinker, or do you think with the herd? Example: I'm a conservative (e.g., I don't think we should shred the Constitution without reading it first). But even though I'm a conservative, and I see that Gore has made the environment "his" issue, and it's being used to undermine the ideals of the free market, that doesn't mean I'm going to reflexively pooh-pooh the environmental problems that we assuredly do have. Get the idea? We're embracing complexity here. Now it's your turn. Here's some information about Clinton's and the DNC's receipt of bribes from the Communist Chinese:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895263335/qid=938234079/sr=1-1 /002-2533244-6828040

And here's some more of the same, only this goes into more detail of exactly what the sumbich gave in return (worth digesting, if only to understand why people hate him so much. You do want to know, don't you? Think: if you knew why, you'd win more arguments with us, right? So this book is worth your while, if only to "know your enemy"):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895263173/o/qid=938234353/sr=2 -3/002-2533244-6828040

And when you've got this news, check out this fascinating CHINA SPY GUIDE, courtesy of the "freepers" at freerepublic.com (thanks, freepers):

http://www.actionworks.org/guides/frlinks/china.htm

I don't believe that "communism" is a problem in itself. What we're dealing with is a small group of very rich people who want a collectivist, highly survellied, tightly controlled, global society. (and they are used to getting what they want, believe me). Ideologies are played off against one another, covertly funded and directed by various means, to this end. As Orwell suggests in his "1984," they may never allow the reality of global unity to appear covertly. Analyze the NWO's extremely shady deals with totalitarian China, in this light. In addition to 1984, and of course "Brave New World," read Ira Levine's "This Perfect Day" to get a sense of where I'm coming from with this. Those authors are/were UNUSUALLY well informed, all of them; their work ought rightly to be classified as "novelization" rather that the novel. Do you take my meaning? Make the effort to understand where we "John Birchers" (Ha!)are coming from. If you make one-tenth the effort we've made in our research, you might think twice before lumping us in with "militias" or racist-whatever (admit it: that's just some crap you got from Mommy State's news pap). Do your research. Understand your ingrained prejudices and endeavor to work around them. I used to think "socialism would be cool." Then I stopped smoking dope and watching t.v. and started reading. I suggest you do the same.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 25, 1999.

Seer - you said:

"Between Y2K, wars, earthquakes and the like, along with our own nations moral demise, our grandchildren will inherit the wind. It is not something that you or I did to cause this. Every great nation had its glory days, afterwhich it became a 3rd world nation for a time. We as a nation have peaked, and our glory days are a memory fading fast."

Excuse me? Who exactly do you think IS responsible? If the American people are not responsible for the decline of America, then who is?

If you are of the age of reason, old enough to think, vote and lend your voice, talents, energy, time and money - then you indeed ARE responsible for the decline and fall of America. Americans think that they can always blame someone else for what is wrong in this country.

The simple fact is, each of us shares a small part of the responsibility of America - it's successes and it's shortcomings. I may not be PERSONALLY responsible for Willie Boy and his panderings, but I AM responsible for being a part of the solution - which is what most American's fail to recognize, therefore letting corrupt and evil politicians, judges and whatnot undermine the moral fabric of this country. Believing that we don't share the responsibility is basically saying that we won't hold these (and ourselves) accountable for their actions. SOMEBODY has to do it - somebody has to face the responsibility and the accountability. We as Americans must come to realize that our country is in it's current state of moral decay because we failed to stand up and stop what was going on - and we continue to fail to do this today. Our elected respresentatives were SUPPOSED to do this (in part) for us - but they have clearly failed. Now it is up to us (it always was). If we as a people accept our responsiblities for America's decline from a state of grace, we just might have a chance to fix it before God destroys us all. Maybe.

-- I AM (the people@are.responsible.com), September 25, 1999.

Then I stopped smoking dope and watching t.v. and started reading. I suggest you do the same.

Frankly, I think it was the TV that did the most damage.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 25, 1999.

I AM,

This gets right to the heart of it! Rousing yourself, being a citizen of a free society, TAKING RESPONSIBILITY. This one action would make all the difference; it's where all the solutions to all our problems originate from - this moral choice, to take responsibility, or not.

People think that they don't have enough energy to take responsibility; but TAKING RESPONSIBILITY GIVES YOU ENERGY.

Hat's off to you, I AM.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 25, 1999.

Wait Uncle D,...think of what those great old shows have done to help homogenize the melting pot! "Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale, a tale of fateful trip...hmmm hmmm..." or how about "What's up Doc?"... or "Luuucccceeey, you got some 'splainin to do!" We have lived without tv for the last year, and I've missed my "Wonder Years" reruns, and "Pinky and the Brain" episodes. "Narf!" I'd love to see the Brain's take on Y2K.

Any Tick and Arthur fans out there?

Got frivolous but deviously clever entertainment?

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 25, 1999.

Sigh...How boys can try one's patience.

The only militia site I have read is Militia of Montana. I spent quite a while studying their food catalog. I'm so glad that you warned me of the distortion and lies... now I'll know better than to take their nutrition labels at face value!

I have never had the slightest involvement with John Birch.

sheesh's definition of pigheaded and dense = anyone who doesn't agree with sheesh; any woman who dares have an opinion in the hallowed halls of male ego-dum

An interesting observation... I know many people who voted Republican who are willing to examine and evaluate information about Reagan and Bush (and the Republican party), no matter how unfavorable. I know many Republicans who are disillusioned. Democrats? A rare minority will admit being repulsed by the one they elected to lead our country, but the majority puff up like toads and squeal like a stuck hog at the very suggestion that they made a mistake, or that they elected anything but a socialist angel. gag blah ugh

I'm more interested in hearing from people who LOVE AMERICA (America, the Republic founded on a remarkable Constitution, the nation that has blessed many generations with a blessed freedom), than those who are infatuated with their political parties, candidates, and ideologies. For those who think our Constitution is outdated, or that we would be better off with socialism, tribal dynamics etc., please post an example of where your proposed form of government has historically succeeded (at implementing freedom), or is currently succeeding, along with your suggestion to 'change' America. I love the "purple mountains majesty" and the "fruited plains", but that is not America. America is much more than a geographical place. The Pilgrims (that are so misconstrued and stereotyped) came here for Freedom. They left their homelands and paid with their livelihoods and lives for that freedom. Taxes were one matter, but the idea that others could just censor ideas and speech, dictate education and religion, and arrest and punish you unjustly with corrupt ulterior motives were another. Our Freedom is being slowly eroded away. Some like to believe that America will overcome anything and rise like a phoenix from the ashes, but it is disheartening when you take an honest look. People think that they can be fiscal conservatives and divorce themselves from truth and integrity. Balancing the budget and downsizing the government would be great, but it will not save America. We are a nation that believes we can do whatever is right in our own eyes. We have raised a generation that worships Self, and at the altar of Self will sacrifice inconvenient or defective human beings (young, old and imbetween), marriages (if they bother to marry) that no longer fit the Hollywood bill of romance, and values that impede of hinder self-gratification. There is no truth or principle greater than Self to these people.

It's too sad.

BTW, don't be so anti-conspiracy that you can't see the nose on your own face. Hold your opinions, but don't let them hold you.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 25, 1999.

Mumsie -- I hope you're doing your kegel exercises for Mr. Mumsie.
y2k dave -- naziism (national socialism) is a variant of fascism. Fascism, socialism, communism are all variations of collectivism. Your ignorance is showing, which is not surprising if you have no "education" other than that supplied by public (government -- collective) schools.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 25, 1999.

"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." -John F. Kennedy

-- x (x@x.mil), September 25, 1999.

A, that was boorish.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 25, 1999.

Ha! The real reason Kennedy was assassinated?

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 25, 1999.

Mumsie: I'm just that kinda guy. At least you know about what I said. You religiosos have no trouble pumping out litters, but you are all so uptight about sex. Go figure.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 25, 1999.

As long as parents turn their children over to the Government Schools to be brainwashed because the parents think they have to have fancy new cars and shiny big boats, we are in for trouble. The schools teach kids that it is "normal" to be gay. They spend more time teaching about George Washinton Carver then George Washington.

Children today are being trained to be mindless workers who question their parent's beliefs. There is a bill on Gov. Davis's desk (AB1363) that will allow schools to administer medications to children without the parent's knowledge or consent. The childs's pediatrition will not have acess to the child's medications. This is a disaster.

IMHO, any parent who loves their child will forgo a few luxuries and stay home to teach their children themselves.

-- Homeschooling Grandma (mlaymon@glenn-co.k12.ca.us), September 26, 1999.

A, you are mighty judgemental today. I did not say you were boorish, I said your remark was. Or do bad manners go hand in hand now with being 'liberated'? Silly me, I thought you would admit the gaffe. Going to check on each beautiful child now, snuggled sweetly in their beds. I love those kids so much.

PS...I'll try one more time to explain this. Believing that certain boundaries related to sex are good and healthy, does not mean that you don't enjoy it and think it's fun and wonderful.

Got a faithful lover?

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 26, 1999.

Mumsie -- I have trouble distinguishing peoples' actions and their characters. :-)
Boundaries? How about 2 kids max per female? :-)
Faithful lover? As far as I know. :-)

Your thing with kids -- is there a guy involved? How come your handle isn't "wifey"? Why didn't you also go check on your guy, snuggled in the Barcalounger in front of the TV? :-) Reminds me of Dr. Laura Schlesinger whose on-air signature is "I'm my kid's mom." Couldn't she at least alternate that with "I'm my husband's wife"?

Now, let's see, what does this have to do with Naziism? Um, maybe Hitler was a really nice guy, kindly to Eva Braun.

Anyway, except for the rugrat and religion stuff, your other type post s generally make sense. Meet you on another thread, sometime, this one's getting buried.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 26, 1999.

Buried is right, and probably a good thing. I found your response just now in my mail.

A.. you know I made the reponse about my kids because you provoked with the litter remark.

I didn't have to check on Mr. Beautiful, because I knew when he was going to quit work and planned to meet him.

I'm not really a Dr. Laura fan, have only heard her twice. My posting name was quite spur of the moment, it's the nickname my teens gave me. With seven kids, you may well imagine that my thoughts relate often to them. Quite natural.

You also know the boundaries I referred to, but if you really really want to open the old argument of whether government has the right to dictate family size....

I like a lot of your posts. I have been trying to keep a truce with you, but your remarks were rather provocative, in an uncalled for way this time. That is what I was trying to say. Do you ever apologize?

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 27, 1999.

A,

I have seen this crap about national socialism equating to communism but its not by any reach of the imagination. National socialism is Fascism which means that CAPITALISM is still the mean of production. Check out how US corporation assisted German corporation prior and during WWII. Communism is suppose to mean that the means of production is in the hands of the working class thus is called socialism. Fascism is thus CAPITALIST in nature and thus a right wing affair. There is no way that I can find that compares the two but certain assertion are being to equate the two. It is amazing that only those associated with the right today are trying hard to define fascism and communism in the same breath.

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), September 27, 1999.

Mumsie -- OK, truce again. You've got the seven kids already, so you can't send them back :-) So I apologize for beating on you for that. Now, if you had another...

y2k Dave: Minor distinction -- they all fall under the category of COLLECTIVISM. The state or collective is everything -- the individual is nothing except as he may serve the state. Communism is actually a little bit more honest than fascism, as in communism the state owns the means of production. In fascism, ownership may be in "private" hands, but CONTROL is by the state. In both cases, the STATE CONTROLS the means of production, distribution, etc., REGARDLESS OF OWNERSHIP.

If you don't get this, you need some education instead of just regurgitating what you learned in public (state) schools. You don realize that public schools was one of the planks that Marx thought necessesary to socialize (communize) a country, don't you?

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 27, 1999.

BTW, both free coutries (of which there are none) and collectivist countries require the use of CAPITAL to generate production increases. Soviet Russia was just as much capitalistic as the U.S. The major difference was that the government conrolled more of it in the U.S.S.R., and so screwed up even more than the U.S.

Again, remember that Nazi == National Socialism. Fascism comes from Italian fascii -- a bundle (collective) of sticks. One stick iw weak, a bundle is strong.

Again. get an education before you think your reguritations have any relevance.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 27, 1999.

A,

You are so full of shit it hurts real bad don't it. I did not say that both NEED CAPITAL, I stated FASCISM is CAPITOLIST in its infrastructure. Communism has socialism as its infrastruction. Do you know the difference or has daddy birch not made that clear to you. Of course you don't know the differnce and it shows. Are you trying to impress some of the boys a the birch hall or what.

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), September 28, 1999.

A,

This is what Mussolini whote about Fascism. Now you do get it and do you NEED MORE EDUCATION yourself. Go back and tell daddy birch he is dead wrong about fascism and communism...

...Fascism [is] the complete opposite ofMarxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production.... Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied - the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society....

After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage....

...Fascism denies, in democracy, the absur[d] conventional untruth of political equality dressed out in the garb of collective irresponsibility, and the myth of "happiness" and indefinite progress....

...iven that the nineteenth century was the century of Socialism, of Liberalism, and of Democracy, it does not necessarily follow that the twentieth century must also be a century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy: political doctrines pass, but humanity remains, and it may rather be expected that this will be a century of authority...a century of Fascism. For if the nineteenth century was a century of individualism it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism and hence the century of the State....

The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State....

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....

...For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death. Fascism is the doctrine best adapted to represent the tendencies and the aspirations of a people, like the people of Italy, who are rising again after many centuries of abasement and foreign servitude. But empire demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects of the practical working of the regime, the character of many forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which must be taken against those who would oppose this spontaneous and inevitable movement of Italy in the twentieth century, and would oppose it by recalling the outworn ideology of the nineteenth century - repudiated wheresoever there has been the courage to undertake great experiments of social and political transformation; for never before has the nation stood more in need of authority, of direction and order. If every age has its own characteristic doctrine, there are a thousand signs which point to Fascism as the characteristic doctrine of our time. For if a doctrine must be a living thing, this is proved by the fact that Fascism has created a living faith; and that this faith is very powerful in the minds of men is demonstrated by those who have suffered and died for it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), September 28, 1999.

A,

Can you read???? Please take note....

Technically, the word NAZI was the acronym for the National Socialist German Worker's Party. It was a fascist movement that had its roots in the European nationalist and socialist movements, and that developed a grotesque biologically-determinant view of so-called "Aryan" supremacy. (Here we use "national socialism" to refer to the early Nazi movement before Hitler came to power, sometimes termed the "Brownshirt" phase, and the term "Nazi" to refer to the movement after it had consolidated around ideological fascism.)

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), September 28, 1999.

Yada yada -- Nothing that Mussolini says or your said refutes what I said. The OWNERSHIP of the capital is immaterial. Who CONTROLS it is what counts. Under both fascism and communism or other variants of collectivism, it is the ruling elite that CONTROLS it. Is that so hard to understand? In both cases the individual is seen as no more than a cog in the apparatus of the state. (And if you believe in the "withering away of the state" line put out by the socialists/communists, I've got some nice riverside land in North Carolina you might be interested in.)

See, I said all that's necessary, including insults, in one parapraph. Doesn't take a whole book, pamphlet, or long-winded harangue to cut through the crap.

BTW, it is reputed that Hitler was responsible for killing 6M Jews. It is reputed that your obvious hero, Stalin, was responsible for the killing of over 20M total. If only 5.9M of them were Jews, I guess that makes him better, in your eyes?

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 28, 1999.

A,

You forgot the 12m gentiles that Hitler murdered.. I see we could argue until the sun comes up and not convince the other of each others point of view.. You really don't know the differnce do you. So if Stalin is my hero that would put Hitler as yours??? Remember. Fascism is the dieing vestige of a capitalist society..

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), September 28, 1999.

A,,

Here is one answer to your CONTROL problem?? NOte, that while you are correct that ther are problems in distinguishing the two in dictatorship form there are inherent differences that need to be examined. Do you find it so hard to believe that Germany was,is, and continues to be a CAPITOLIST society even when Hitler was in control??

One of the major forms of government of the 20th century is called fascism. The name is derived from the Latin fasces, a symbol of authority in ancient Rome. The fasces was a bundle of rods strapped together around an axe, and it represented the unbreakable power of the state. Fascism, along with Communism (and to some extent, Socialism), holds to the notion that the state is supreme over the individual. It is therefore the responsibility of all individuals to work together for the betterment of the state. The word fascism was first used by Benito Mussolini in Italy to describe the form of government he brought to that nation in the 1920s. The same type of government also appeared in Germany, Japan, South Africa, Argentina, and a number of other countries later, although it was not always called fascism. In its most notorious version, which developed in Germany under Adolf Hitler, it was called National Socialism. (See also Communism ; Socialism ; Hitler ; Mussolini .)

In their end result, fascism and Communism may be hard to distinguish from each other, because they both tend toward dictatorship and the deprivation of human rights. But in their origins they are quite distinct. Communism purports to create a revolution on behalf of the exploited working class to break the power of capitalism, in which a few people control production, and hand over the means of production to the people. Fascism, on the other hand, forges a political alliance with capitalism, working with those who control production, for the better economic functioning of the nation. Communism is supposed to be a transitional phase in history, awaiting the time when the state will wither away and all workers will cooperatively determine their own economic destiny. Fascism makes no such claim: It exalts the nation (or, as in Germany, the nation and race) as the supreme value, and it uses the police and military powers of the state to enforce its policies.

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), September 28, 1999.

"In their end result, fascism and Communism may be hard to distinguish from each other, because they both tend toward dictatorship and the deprivation of human rights." Precisely my point.

"But in their origins they are quite distinct..." So what? Regardless of the motivation -- the so-called highest, or the lowest, the results of COLLECTIVISM, of which I again point out, that socialism, communism, fascism, naziism are but variants of, the results are the same -- "...dictatorship and the deprivation of human rights."

Now, if you'll now excuse me, I want to get back to Andy 2000 and others' posts about the markets -- dirty old capitalist me.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 28, 1999.