No details yet, just caught a flash of the breaking story on Larry King.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), September 15, 1999

Answers

Wife says they are reporting six dead so far.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), September 15, 1999.

Source: Channel 5 News, Dallas, Texas Published: Now

"A man dressed in black walked into the Wedgewood Baptist Church in far SW Ft. Worth, muttered a few 'anti-religious' phrases, then opened fire.Indications so far six (6) victims and the gunman, who shot himself. The Ft. Worth bomb squad is on the scene now. " 654844 Posted on 09/15/1999 18:13:25 PDT by Le-Roy

-- Jon Johnson (Narnia4@usa.net), September 15, 1999.

I am thinking more and more into the reasons why someone would do this and not just automaticaly label them a nut.

-- Carol (glear@usa.net), September 15, 1999.

Wednesday September 15 10:02 PM ET

Gunman Fires In Texas Church, Nine Believed Dead

FORT WORTH, Tex. (Reuters) - A gunman cursing about religion opened fire on teenage worshippers in a crowded Baptist church Wednesday, possibly killing up to nine people, police said.

The Cable News Network said there were six confirmed dead.

A police spokesman said the gunman, described as a tall bearded man dressed in black, brought the carnage to a stop when he turned his gun on himself as police closed in. Local television in Fort Worth reported that the gunman was dead.

Witnesses say he may also have set off a bomb or grenade.

It was the latest in a string of gun rampages in the United States over the last six months that began last April when two teenage students killed 15 people including themselves in an attack on their high school in Littleton, Col.

A police spokesman told Reuters that there could be as many as nine people dead and a total of 15 shot after the man opened fire in the Wedgwood Baptist Church.

``I've been told there's people dead by officers at the scene, and if they say that, there probably are,'' a spokesman at police headquarters said. He added, ``It is not confirmed but I am hearing nine dead, that number has been mentioned.''

He said that when police arrived at the scene, they exchanged gunfire with the suspect.

More than 100 teenagers were attending a prayer service and concert for youth when the shooting broke out. Local media quoted witnesses as saying the gunman was a tall bearded man with long hair, dressed in black, smoking a cigarette.

They said he walked calmly through the main door of the church and opened fire. Witnesses said he also told the congregation to ``stay still'' while he was firing.

Laura Watson, a witness, told local television, she heard what sounded like a bomb going off as well as gunshots and added, ``I heard him (the gunman) shout, 'It is all bullshit what you believe.'''

She said he started firing when the youths in the church were just about to start singing a religious song.

-- Gayla (privacy@please.com), September 15, 1999.

I can't concieve of any legitimate reason for a rational human being to walk into a church and begin gunning people down at random, so I'm guessing you are implying some sort of mind control or such as an alternative to his being a psychopath.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), September 15, 1999.

more ammunition for the anti-gun push

-- h (h@h.h), September 15, 1999.

Seven people killed including the gunman. NO bomb has went off. Wedgewood Baptist Church in SW Fort Worth just off I-20. Channel 5 News is on the scene ground and air. No rationale for the attack at this time. A youth rally was going on at the time.

-- Neil G.Lewis (pnglewis1@yahoo.com), September 15, 1999.

Could be a family-type problem. We had a similar situation where the husband was beating his wife and the church tried to protect her. He came to the church on Sunday threatening to shoot everyone! So before we play the guessing game, we'll have to wait and see.

-- gto early to tell (toearlytotell@memememeee.com), September 15, 1999.

This thing strikes me as not being nearly as random as it appears at first glance. Texas has had concealed carry for several years now and the chosen target was probably one of the very few left in this state where someone was not armed to return fire, either a citizen or security guard.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), September 15, 1999.

In addition to the seven dead, there are 5 teens and 1 adult injured (none critically). All are in the hospital. ATF agents with dogs are searching for possible explosives in the church parking lot. Will take a while.

-- Neil G.Lewis (pnglewis1@yahoo.com), September 15, 1999.

Actually Gunman reportedly shot himself. Been following this since it happened at 7PM. Local News broke in. It's close to where I live.

It's pretty sad the whole thing... but the newsmedia starts disgusting me...

Reporter: Excuse me lady... Your daughter was just shot in the face and died in her own pool of blood in YOUR CHURCH. How does that make you feel...?

Mom: I can't.... I can't talk right now...

Reporter annoyed: Well, just a few words..???

Mom: I can't...

Reporter even more annoyed: Well, as you can imagine back in the studio people are pretty disturbed about this...

What has this world gotten to...???

And don't start yelling guncontrol....

-- STFrancis (STFrancis@heaven.com), September 15, 1999.

"What has this world gotten to...???"

I don't know, STFrancis, but I've been wondering the same thing. We are having an epidemic of mothers abandoning their newborn babies in Houston. Thirteen in just the past month! Some in dumpsters, some covered with ants. Most have survived. It absolutely breaks my heart!

-- Gayla (privacy@please.com), September 15, 1999.

And as predictable as rain during a hurricane, some radio talk host just said about the shooter: "He was probably one of those Millennium Nuts!"

--She in the sheet remembering when spin was something a child's toy did.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 15, 1999.

Gayla,

Let us all pray tonight (to whatever entity you believe in) for salvation and help from the guy above. May we realize the error of our ways.

May God be with all of you...

-- STFrancis (STFrancis@heaven.com), September 15, 1999.

STFrancis, I've been completely turned off TV news ever since there was a boiler explosion in an elementary school and some IDIOT reporter stuck a microphone in front of a young witness and wanted to know how he felt about seeing his classmates blown to bits! It made me want to throw up.

Gayla, we've not heard a word about the baby abandonment plague - maybe the media is actually trying to prevent the spread. It seems that anything that gets media attention attracts copy cats.

-- T the C (tricia_canuck@hotmail.com), September 16, 1999.

it,s of SATAN. he comes to=kill-steal-&-destroy.as it is written>>>>>> in THE LAST DAY,S ''VIOLENCE WILL INCREASE''folk,s it,s spiritual-warfare.the only HOPE is for our nation to turn back to GOD. WE HAVE LOST OUR SPIRITUAL PROTECTION.checkout all the demonic-activity-on-the web.false religion is rampant. there is only 1=TRUE-GOD. THE GOD OF THE BIBLE.[this is just the beggining]

-- your friendly village idiot. (dogs@zianet.com), September 16, 1999.

So Al,

Are you saying that the "devil" has more power here then God? That is what you are saying isnt it? Al it is easy to mutter bible verses, but it would help if you knew WHAT THE HELL YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT.

-- (Barney@fife.com), September 16, 1999.

Prayer Request from AL DRISCOL, CATT@ZIANET.COM on 9/11/98 [FROM>> AL & MARIANNE DRISCOL, IN 1995 A [JURY] IN EL-PASO TX.AWARDED- -US 11 MILLION $$$ IN [LANDMARK-CASE] PLEASE-PRAY [LORD] WILL GIVE-US HELP & FAVOR--WITH-APPEALS-COURT, WE FEEL ''LORD'' GAVE-US THIS-- JUDGEMENT TO BLESS--OTHERS.

Posted by al driscol on December 09, 1998 at 00:34:21: had any BAD=EXPERIENCES???? GIVE-US A BUZZ=catt@zianet.com link http://www.digitalpulse.net/cim/wwwboard/messages/14.html

-- (hey@al.com), September 16, 1999.

Was "God" napping or was it "God's will"? ("God" is omnisicient and omnipresent, right?) Maybe the parishoners weren't quite as righteous as they thought they were.

-- me (me@thinkforourself.com), September 16, 1999.

This thing strikes me as not being nearly as random as it appears at first glance. Texas has had concealed carry for several years now and the chosen target was probably one of the very few left in this state where someone was not armed to return fire, either a citizen or security guard.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), September 15, 1999.

Texas may have concealed carry, but have you looked at the hoops, the costs, and all of the many places one may not carry under any circumstance. Contrary to your opinion, there are lots of places left in Texas where no, not even the security guard is caring a gun.

Geez! the world does not revolve around gun control. More likely when it all blows out we'll find this particular story revolves around drugs and resultant mental illness.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh. It's been a weird night all around. Listening to the blow by blow nobody really knows reports for hours and then my husband comes home with his own stories of near death experiences at work involving psychosis, heroin, fire, and a knife. Hey, and we don't even have a full moon yet!

I was caught by two statements made tonight over and over. One newscaster kept noting that there have been eleven such incidents in the US just this year (mass shootings). And another woman who was at the church who kept saying "this doesn't happen here". Perhaps the mass shootings haven't happened before (that is if you don't count the random shooters on the loop around Ft. Worth...which has been going on for at least 15 years that I'm aware of). But there is almost a tradition in the area of random violence against women which usually includes murder....and it tends to occur much like these mass shootings, in batches. In 1984 my neice was murdered in Ft.Worth...part of a batch of 8 or 9 other women who were murdered that year in Ft.Worth.

Gayla, you mention the abandoned babies (lots of it happening up here too)...there is even talk of passing a new law which will allow women to just drop the baby off (with no penalty or questions asked) at a local fire station or emergency room rather than just abandoned it. Sounds like a good idea to me.

Whatever is happening, it's like a ground swell that's been growing for a long time. I think drugs has a lot to do with what's going on in Texas.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), September 16, 1999.

'Maybe the parishoners weren't quite as righteous as they thought they were.'

-- me (me@thinkforourself.com), September 16, 1999.

I doubt any of us are as righteous as we think we are. I also have serious doubts as to whether God or All That Is or Great Spirit sits around compulsively intervening in everything from our wars, our self inflicted woundings, or our football games.

No one 'deserves' what happened tonight; the fact that God did not stop the killer does not mean the wounded and dead were somehow tainted and unworthy of God's protection. . . any more than Jesus was unworthy.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), September 16, 1999.

Shelia, we HAVE passed that law in Houston, but it's not helping. They have been told they can drop their babies off at a hospital emergency room and there will be NO police investigation. Today's baby was left in someone's driveway. Yesterday it was an elementary school. One last week was left outside a Holiday Inn. The one in the dumpster was born alive but died.

There are many couples who are not able to have kids, and I can't imagine what this does to them when they see a story like this.

-- Gayla (privacy@please.com), September 16, 1999.

Shelia: But the parishoners, I doubt, considered themselves as a target like Jesus made himself (so the story goes, anyway.)

Someone said above -- 11 incidents. Consider -- only 11 incidents out out of a population of 275,000,000. That doesn't seem like a major problem to me (statistically). But, naturally your rulers and their lapdog press will jump all over these and whatever else comes, in an attempt to disarm EVERYONE.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 16, 1999.

IT,S GONNA GET REAL''UGLY BEFORE JESUS RETURN,S'' yes GOD is in control, but he also won,t be mocked.--satan does HIS DIRTY WORK. WE ARE IN THE AGE, WHERE WE,RE REAPING WHAT WE SOWED. our kids are bombarded, by violence' & lack of spiritual=TRUTH.*read= THE BIBLE every NATION that turn,s thier back on GOD pay,s a high-price. WE HAVE ENTERED THE FINAL-BATTLE--FOR MEN,S SOUL,S.

-- I READ THE BOOK. (dogs@zianet.com), September 16, 1999.

I didn't know it had already been passed... We have reached a point where life is so cheap and meaningless for many...and psychotic for others. I really do think it has a lot to do with the drug levels and types of drugs now making the rounds in Texas. How else do you explain a woman not caring if her new born child lives or dies? I can understand a woman giving up a child she cannot care for. I cannot understand (even when the mother is a child herself) killing the child. And yet we see it happening all around us, and not just with people who are poor.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), September 16, 1999.

'Consider -- only 11 incidents out out of a population of 275,000,000. That doesn't seem like a major problem to me (statistically). But, naturally your rulers and their lapdog press will jump all over these and whatever else comes, in an attempt to disarm EVERYONE.'

A, I'll grant you that statistically that's not much...but then we have to add on all those freeway shootings, drive bys, and all those women along 820 in Ft.Worth who got abducted and dragged off into the bushes, assaulted, and summarily executed just for the hell of it.

Personally I'm all for experimentally disarming every male in the country for one year, while at the same time arming every female (with exceptions for prior violent history) and let's just see what happens.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), September 16, 1999.

Oh, and since I'm just daydreaming here, and to help allay any squismishness you alpha boys may have about this one year experiment, we would of course have to disarm all of the military and male police forces within the country also....only when the boys go overseas can they have their guns back...sort of like Dodge City: check the guns at border.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), September 16, 1999.

Hey folks...

The last time this happened, at a daycare center, Somebody suggested ARMING the daycare center workers. I replied "did i read that wrong or did i just see somebody suggesting MORE guns are the answer"

so i guess now we're going to arm the teens in the church, and the pastors, and the choir, and the ushers!!!!

Rock On....

--waiting for the next tragedy so I can see who else gets to pack to stop these mad gunman who will be so afraid they'll get shot, even though they kill themselves after they kill.

peace.

-- SuperLurker (Slfsl@yahoo.com), September 16, 1999.

WE ARE IN THE END-TIMES.IF YOU READ THE BOOK OF MATHEW, YOU,LL SEE-IT. IT AIN,T PRETTY, BUT IF YOUR SAVED=NO SWEAT.

-- i,ve seen a great light=JESUS. (dogs@zianet.com), September 16, 1999.

JESUS SAID, don,t FEAR physical-death-it only happens 1 time--HE did say =fear the 2nd=death--ETERNALLY-LOST.THE GREATEST LOSS IS ETRNAL-LIFE. HE DIED TO GIVE IT TO WHOEVER WILL BELIEVE HIS PROMISES. DON.T BE CONDEMNED BY IDIOT PREACHER,S WHO MISREPRESENT JESUS. JESUS LOVES YOU,LISTEN TO HIS WORDS=BIBLE.HE IS=ETERNAL-LIFE.YOU CAN,T SAVE YOURSELF. YOU DON,T HAVE TO.HIS LOVE IS AWESOME.HE UNDERSTAND,S OUR NEED.[REST IN HIS LOVE]

-- I-G.I. (dogs@zianet.com), September 16, 1999.

Super Lurker: Precisely.
Shelia: Only if the females are only allowed to do so only a couple of weeks out of the month. (Which weeks not allowed? PMS (perpetual monthly syndrome) weeks.) hee-hee.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 16, 1999.

There are some frustrated people in this country. There are also some sick people in this country. Many additional social ills can be blamed on the press and mainstream materialism.

-- mil (dontletit@getyou.down), September 16, 1999.

"how can a woman let her newborn child die?" Carefully nuanced words. Newborn. Our own laws cheapen human life: we use RICO antil-racketeering laws to jail people who even DARE protest against abortion, which is the ultimate cheapening. And the gunman shouting "everything you believe is bulls**t!" Our government agrees with him, making prayer in school, or even before a football game, ILLEGAL! Our elite media nomenklatura laugh their heads off that the poor benighted people in Kansas would want their kids taught Creation Theory: what rubes they must be, what savages. I walk into our hospital waiting room and see five year old kids sitting next to lovely women's magazines whose covers scream about 'explosive orgasms' and 'hottest sex ever.' We scratch our heads in bemusement as all of our carefully cultivated atheistic chickens come home to roost. We wonder how it can be that our Culture of Death actually BRINGS death, and we search for secular solutions to what is, at heart, a spiritual problem. Nothing new: it happened in 1650 in Oliver Cromwell's England, and in 1790 under Robespierres' France. It is happening now in the Sudan and East Timor, the Balkans and Ft. Worth.

-- Spidey (in@jam.zephyr), September 16, 1999.

Wait a second, you religionists seem to be assuming, "atheist= evil amoral satanist." That's simply not true.

There are a percentage of screwball atheists. There is also a percentage of screwball Islamics and screwball Christians -as I recall, that Chicago killer was one. However, to imply that the only moral people are religious ones, is simply NOT true.

I'm not an atheist. I'm a deist, and I became one after realising that three of the coolest people in history (Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin) were ones. Also that it fitted in perfectly with my metaphysical beliefs. As a deist, I respect God as "the sum of all nature's forces", but don't worship him. I don't follow any religious ethics, either.

The only ethics I, and most of my atheist/agnostic/deist/pagan friends follow, are our OWN ones. You know, "don't impose yourself by force on ANYONE.. be honest.. try to be nice and helpful.." etcetera. You know, the general code of conduct as to how people behave.

I don't think homosexuality is amoral. I don't think you'll go to hell if you have premaritial sex. I don't think that abortion is wrong, before a certain time period (trouble I have with the antiabortionists is, where do you draw the line.. should we protect all sperm? Should nonreproductive sex thus be illegal?).

I don't think prayers should be compulsory in public schools. I don't think that anyone has a right to force their morals on anyone else- be they athiests, Christians, or whatever. That guy in Texas seems to have been little more than a lunatic, plain and simple.

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), September 16, 1999.

It's too bad texas ccw permits do not allow permit holders to carry in churches this could have been avoided

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), September 16, 1999.

I don't claim to have all of, or the definitive answers to this question from Sheila: "How else do you explain a woman not caring if her new born child lives or dies? ",....but I think there is a huge gap in the understand of 'human beings in general' about desperation, and how it can cause each and every one of us to violate cherished value systems. I am reminded of the story, made into a film, "Sophie's Choice." The resources available to people, are made so difficult to access, it is almost if they are purposely intended to be unaccessible. The PR about "helping" people down on the killing floor is greater than the reality.

If a young woman has known only deprivation, pain, fear, abuse and distrust in her life, I'm not sure she would believe that she could give up a newborn with impunity,...and for that matter, I can she how she could think, "better the child was dead, I could be dead any time myself."

When my children were born, I was young, married, with family available; I would probably not have gone anywhere close to that horrible place. I was fortunate. I was not destitute with few options to help me keep my nose above water. Desperation reduces choices, and choice-making skills like a wrecking ball reduces a building to rubble.

More laws, and more religion will not stop this. People willing to go to the mat for desperate people may.

--Two cents from She in the sheet.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 16, 1999.

Here is their webpage and email. Why not email them and let them know we care. Thanks )

http://www.wedgwoodbc.org

thewedge@flash.net

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 16, 1999.

'The resources available to people, are made so difficult to access, it is almost if they are purposely intended to be unaccessible. The PR about "helping" people down on the killing floor is greater than the reality.'

Donna, having been in desperate straits twice when I was younger and actually faced with having to let my children go to live with their father, I understand your thoughts. Especially then, there were no resources, and the stigma of 'giving up' your children was tremendous. Luckily for me I was able to maintain regular contact with my children and all has worked out in a loving way in the long term. But it was both demoralizing (that I was unable to provide for them) and humiliating (in the community).

My husband, being in the mental health profession for over twenty years, would certainly agree with you regarding the difficulty of access...and I would add, 'helping' people once a situation has devolved to the 'killing floor' is as much show and advertisement (name recognition in the community), as it is about true empathy for many who rush out to get involved in the 'emergency'.

Saw a particular TV preacher on TV last night...where did he show his face? At the school where families were waiting? and where his face probably wouldn't have been seen? Oh no, at the hospital, hanging out in the parking lot with the TV newscasters.

There are no easy answers, and I certainly did not mean to come across as having any answers. My bs about arming the ladies as vs. the men was of course just that...I think I get very tired of hearing the guys say things like if they had been armed no one would have died; so I shot off the bow with an equally nonsensical response.

There are ways to assist the many folks who find themselves in desparate straits...but hey, it costs money. And we know what's not happening in the social services arenas. The first thing to get cut in any budget, whether it is city, state, or federal are the social services monies. While we build bigger and better (and more expensive for Joe Public)football stadiums, our roads and our support systems for the elderly and the young fall into disrepair. Am I wrong to think this is a corporate/greed driven agenda?

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), September 16, 1999.

I absolutely agree with you Sheila. I have a feeling I let my personal frustration seep through in my last post. I did not intend it to land on you. I listen to pundits, so-called experts explain and legislate, and I should know better because it just upsets me. I just interviewed for a counseling position in a program that works with teens in alternative high school programs, an adjunct to their coursework. The goal of the program is to help the kids expand their portfolio of living skills, to connect them with enlightened witnesses, to point the way to options, so that, in the best end scenario, they can return to mainstream schools and experience some success. This of course is opposed to the noise from radio and tv that hints that we should just "give up" or throw them away, because they are bad, beyond hope, just examples of how human beings are born bad. I am a solid advocate of Alice Miller's idea of the importance of "one enlightened witness". One person understanding and standing by can make the difference in the life of a human being desperate and on the killing floor. A spree-killer in a church, a young woman abandonning a baby have both fallen through the cracks in our so-called "advanced civilization", and I bet you can relate to how weary I've become with the inadequate, and destructive "mass response" to these human problems. I'm blabbing sorry...human pain on my mind.

--She in the sheet

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 16, 1999.

WELCOME TO THE BAD NEWS FORUM

I need a dose of you wackos every few days. Makes me realize how good I have it.

-- (sickofthis@crap.com), September 16, 1999.

More laws, supervision, religion, gun control, prayer in schools, fewer video games--none of this will change a thing. All it means is more finger pointing and control. I am neither an Athiest, nor a Christian, and neither of these groups have the answers. We are becoming more balkanized, overcrowded, polluted, disillusioned and cynical daily, and therein lies the problem.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), September 17, 1999.

You guys are getting life mixed up with God. Bad things happen. Good things happean. It's how you go through the life experiences, with God or without God that makes the difference.

-- Moore Dinty moore (not@thistime.com), September 17, 1999.