I've got a couple of British 303s and a Marlin 22 (pretty worthless). I was thinking about getting a russian AK47 and banana clips (if they are still legal), mostly for 'plinking' and home defense. It's been 14 years since I was a cav scout. I admit I'm rusty and need range time.

I guess the first place to start is a range safety class for a review..

Couple of questions:

Is the AK a good choice? I'm looking for something that is safe (won't blow up on me (I remember the old army videos)), Reliable, and doesen't cost too much (~800 or so is OK). Cheap ammo for plinking while I practice would be nice too. I'd like semi-auto with a clip that's easy to insert.

I've heard the russian version is better than the chinese version. True?

Any other recomendations? I thoroughly know the M16.. Fits the bill, but kind of small caliber though.

Bryce

-- bryce (bryce@seanet.com), September 15, 1999

Answers

Hey Bryce, skip the AK idea. They suck. Completely unreliable ond inaccurate. The AR15 is my choice, but I live out where you can see a long ways. If you are in heavily wooded areas and want the heavier caliber, I'd recommend an H & K .308. This german marvel is my choice if it was down to one rifle. I personally don't worry too much about the .223 round. I am more interested in accuracy and range, which is what the AR15 is all about.

Just my opinion.

-- Jim the Window Washer (Rational@man.com), September 15, 1999.

Boy, you'll get *a lot* of responses to your query.

Is the Marlin really useless? Clean it up, and try it, it may be ok. Even a bolt-action .22LR is an effective "varmint" gun. And for practice purpose, there's nothing cheaper than .22LR ammo. A friend of mine has a Winchester .22LR bolt action that is 65 years old. He can hit what he wants to 100 yards every time. It hasn't been tricked out or anything. Just a peep site.

I have no experience with an AK-47, but have heard good things about them. My own recommendation would be in a common caliber - such as .223. That is used in Ruger Mini-14, AR-15, M-16, etc.

The Mini-14 is less expensive than an AR-15. They are highly regarded by some, less so by others. They certainly aren't as accurate as an AR-15 - but they're several hundred cheaper, and do not fall under CA's "assault weapon" rules (yet). Figure a Mini-14 will be fine for 150 yards or less.

If you need greater range, I'd suggest a 30.06. Savage has them complete with (inexpensive) scope for $350 or less at Walmart. I believe the model is the 110. This is a bolt action, but should be ok to 300 yards.

Bear in mind, that anything you get will probably be more accurate than you at this point.

The only thing I'd avoid is SKS - too many variations, with too many quality problems. Also - it's frequently a "target" for government bans. Ugly as sin, too. :-)

In summary - fix up your .22 and use it for your primary practice & varmint weapon. Get a stronger caliber as you see fit.

Try some of these sites: www.ruger.com www.savagearms.com

Jolly

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), September 15, 1999.

I have a 9mm S&W (model 469) which works great for me. However, I'm going through the same kind of conflict as Bryce as to what might be the best choice for more accuracy and longer range defense and perhaps even hunting.

The AR-15s are great but they're really expensive and hard to justify that kind of expense when the money could go toward food and water, etc.

So, I'm leaning toward a 9mm rifle with a clip and a nice scope. I'll spend less in the long run by having cross over ammo, the 9mm is good barter if necessary. Does anyone have any good recommendations?

Also, there is always the possibility of "trading up" eventually.

-- I'm not here (I never@posted.this), September 15, 1999.

bryce, actually the sks is a good all around weapon...accurate to 300yds,about $250,ammo at 13 cents a round.Contrary to popular belief its very durable and you can parts cheap.The government bans increase the resale value after y2k.

-- Eric michael (bizarr2@hotmail.com), September 15, 1999.

I have both the AR15 and SKS. Neither is very accurate for me. It has to do with the military sights which are generally made for slop shooting. I have a custom 22 built around a 10/22 action which is very accurate at 100 yards, in fact deadly accurate. The only problem is that 22 semis tend to jam.

If I could have only one gun my custom 22 would be it. However for self defense at a distance I would have to rely on the AR15 because it seldom jams and I can carry 3 loaded 30 round clips. We live in a rural area where guns are just another household tool. We also know our neighbors. For these reasons I am probably less likely to have to use a gun in self defense than many on this forum.

By the way if anyone knows of a good / accurate peep sight that is available for the AR15 I would like to hear about it.

-- Ed (ed@lizzardranch.com), September 15, 1999.

I'm not,

I too have 9mm S&W and have been looking into rifle for similar reasons.

Both Rugar and Marlin make 9mm carbines. Prices are between $350 and $450. You may want to check them out because you would then have a round that could be used in both carbine and handgun. I'm tending to favor the Rugar because it has a composite stock.

Following site may be of help:http://www.galleryofguns.com/index.

-- sammy (sammy@pop.com), September 15, 1999.

Ed,

http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog/s/scopesmounts.html

Several good scopes here. Personally, I like the trijicon ACOG but the price is a bit much.

-- LM (latemarch@usa.net), September 15, 1999.

Both the .303 and .22 rounds can be pretty accurate at a fair distance. Think about what you are expecting. Do you have a clear field of fire out for a long way? (Not true here.) The .22 is a good practice rifle (cheap, plentiful rounds). Neither would be my first choice in heavy brush/jungle (which we do have). For that, I want a short barreled weapon, with a heavy slug. A winchester '94, with a 16" barrel, in .44 magnum or a pump action 12 gauge shotgun, with rifled slugs. Speaking of which, a shotgun can be a better deterrent than a rifle...psychologically. Especially when you aim just below the waist.

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), September 15, 1999.

I sold my AK-47 recently, but it wasn't because of any problem with the funtion or reliability of the gun. The stock was too short for me and I had purchased a M-14 to go along with the pair of AR-15's I already had, so I just didn't need it any more and it was the most likely to suffer an ammo shortage in the future. I shot that gun quite a bit, it was the Norinco mac-90 model (Chinese) and never in over two thousand rounds did it jam even one time with either the 30 rd bananna clips or the 75 round drum. That is not something I can say about the AR-15's. My HBAR-15 is more accurate, my CAR-15 is less accurate. The AK was capable of four inch groups off a rest at 100 yards using surplus ammo, which is considerably better than the 12 inch groups my old Mini-14 delivered, and that was with a scope off sandbags. Ar-15's are much faster to reload than an AK or Mini-14 as the magazine just slams straight up into the bottom of the gun, while the other two require the magazine to be hooked onto a protruding pin then rolled back to lock, making it very easy to muff a reload under pressure. The M-14 also uses this pin grip type mag, and is really the only weak spot in the gun, but you get .308 power with excellent accuracy so I can live with it. The sks is by far the esiest to convert to full auto of the whole selection, I have watched a buddy do it in less than fifteen minutes using nothing but a screwdriver and a soldering gun. The return to origional condition was just as fast as no parts were modified.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), September 15, 1999.

The SKS is actually an excellent weapon. Look for a Russian one. I recently picked one up for $200 bucks and have already been offered 400 for it. 'course I'm not selling. Ammo is key and the SKS allows you to purch a shitload. Also, the 32 round clips of (basically 30- 30 equivalent) are hard to beat. You must spend at least 4X that for a black gun. Also, the SKS has plenty of reasonably priced accessories such as bi-pod's etc.

And don't forget the old stripper clips. Once you get your ammo, you'll want some strippers to put down the guide after blowing down the gangbangers with your first 90 rounds (assuming you have 3 mags like me). The SKS comes with a strip clip guide. Very robust home defense and hunting weapon. I love it.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), September 15, 1999.

Bryce, Here's a novel suggestion; don't change anything and become proficient with your Enfields and your Marlin .22. Too many people get carried away in the gun debates. This can be great fun, but we tend to argue gun minutia to the point of silliness (I'm guilty of this too ;-). The Enfields are STILL one of the finest bolt action battlefield rifles ever to come off of an assembly line and the .303 round is fairly easy to find and is not terribly expensive. There are good deals on .303 in Gun List and Shotgun News all the time. It is true that there are more accurate rifle/round combinations, though for all practical purposes this doesn't really matter... you're usually talking fractions of an inch at 100 yrds. Also, the .303 is just about as powerful as most of the common high powered rifle rounds (30-06, .308. .270, etc.) and can adequately take any large game animals in North America. No, it's not an elephant gun and it might be a little marginal on Grizzly bear, but short of that you're OK. Unless your Marlin .22 is defective, it is capable of better accuracy than most riflemen are capable of printing on the paper. Once your skill improves to a reasonable level, you should be able to keep a soda can rolling at 100 yrds with it. That sounds impressive, but isn't as difficult as it might seem. We aren't policemen or soldiers and our firearms priorities are different. A few final notes on some of the weapons mentioned in this thread: A 9mm rifle/carbine can be fun and might make sense if you are also carrying a 9mm sidearm but really, you wind up carrying something that weighs as much as a "real" rifle and only packs a pistol's punch. The 9mm is an obsolescent, barely adequate self-defense round IMHO and its popularity has more to do with "Miami Vice" than its effectiveness. If you're sold on the rifle-pistol combo in the same caliber, you'd be better off with something in .357/.38 Special, .44 Magnum/.44 Special or .45 ACP. The AK-47 is a rugged, reliable, moderately powerful (about the same as a 30-30) rifle of mediocre accuracy. Its glaring fault is that it cannot be safely carried for combat in condition 1 (round in the chamber, safety on). The reason for this is that you must physically remove your hand from the trigger to manipulate the safety. The SKS fires the same round as the AK and does have its safety in the trigger guard. Despite its horrendous trigger creep, it is a better choice than the AK and still cheap compared to the expensive US and Euro military rifles. If you are rich, go ahead and splurge. If not, practice with your Enfields and spend the fancy assault rifle money on more beans.

Good luck Doc

-- T.H. "Doc" Toups (ttoups@aol.com), September 15, 1999.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, I'm going to a local shop tomorrow night to get a closer look.

Bryce

-- Bryce (bryce@seanet.com), September 15, 1999.

Bryce,

The key to your question is the intended use. I'm sorry, but neither the .303 or the .22 are proper home defense weapons. You can pick up a 12 guage Mossburg shotgun at K-Mart for around $150.

The AK/SKS are combat weapons. For the poster who stated that the SKS was not accurate, I know several people who use the SKS for hunting antelope out here on the plains of Wyoming. I have one, and although I don't use it for hunting, I've put it through it's paces and it's very reliable and certainly accurate out to 100 yards! Most combat situations involve shots of 50-75 yards max...that's what they were designed for. The Russian paratrooper model is a better quality weapon because the action is made from machined parts instead of the stamped out parts of the Chinese versions, but mine is Chinese and it's still a damned good weapon.

For 800 Greenspans you could have an SKS and a 12 guage, with lots of cash left for ammo. Sell the .303's at a yard sale. You might end up with enough money from the sale for a small frame handgun!

-- Don Wegner (donfmwyo@earthlink.net), September 16, 1999.

Mr. Nut,

Please consult ch. 4 of Boston T. Party's "Boston on Surviving Y2K" as soon as possible. Personally, I think you have a good start, but I think you need more. Put another way, if I were you, I would get a lot more. Following Boston roughly, stick to common calibers. I would recommend considering a .223 over Boston's first choice of a .308 semi auto. Other than that, and considering the advisability of avoiding to the extent possible any and all federal gun purchase paperwork as instituted in Nov. 1998, I think Boston is pretty on the mark. To do the latter legally, inherit, build yourself, or buy so-called "antique" and antique replica guns. Also don't take anyone's word for anything (including mine), do your own research. Also, double up weapons, get repair kits, and sock away some ammo for each weapon (eg 1k/weapon + equal or greater amounts for bartering).

Have at least 2 rifles scoped, different calibers.

Get subsonic ammo for the .22 (less noise when hunting, less likely to attract attention).

Remember if you have close relatives and/or friends, you may want to consider their needs as well, especially if their thinking is not as forward as yours.

Consider populating caches if after this you still have any weapons money left over.

-- Ann Y Body (annybody@no.where.dis.org), September 16, 1999.

As mini-14 owner, I recommend it highly.

-- Mr. T (treader@dawn.net), September 16, 1999.

Your gun choices will depend on your percieved situation and what you want the guns for. I will list what I believe are the best choices for general combat/survival.

AR-15 series. Good for any area except arctic and desert (I hear that they are unreliable in those climates). I don't plan to visit either one, so oh well. Advantages: Lightweight gun and ammo, GI ammo, easily available parts, accurate, potentially very light rifle (if you get a lightweight barrel instead of the popular heavy barrels - a 16" M4 barrel version can be 6 lbs or less if you have the Colt lightweight collapsable stock). Also has a .22 conversion kit that allows you to practice for 3 cents a rd versus 15+ cents. Useable on varmits up to deer sized game, and larger game can be taken with SS- 109 ammo and head shots (and some luck).

AK series. Not too bad. Very reliable, but innaccurate. Also a pain to change magazines in a hurry. Heavy rifle with a 30-rder in it.

SKS: Not bad. Best to get a 20-rd fixed mag and avoid the troubles of converting it to detachable mags. Or buy a newer one that has already been converted commercially.

Biggest disadvantage of both the AK and SKS is ammo availability. It takes imported ammo, by and large, and that is subject to disruption/stoppage. Sure you can stock up, but how long will that last? Whereas .223 is a domestically common caliber, and in a pinch you can take it from a dead GI/trade it from him.

Note that with the rifles it is in my opinion, best to use SP ammo for most situations. Why? It does more damage than military ammo, while penetrating a bit less. SP's are for killing, and FMJ is for Geneva-Convention mandated wounding. FMJ is better for some situations involving heavy cover, but you can always shoot what's exposed, or use head/exposed torso shots.

Get a pistol. The fellow you had to shoot won't know or care whether it was a 9mm or a .40 or a .45 cal. Use good quality JHP or frangible ammo. Ball ammo stinks for defense purposes. I prefer SA pistols, you may not.

Shotguns are marginal to inferior for most combat situations. Disadavantages include: 1) very limited range with most loads. Most buckshot loads won't RELIABLY keep even 1 pellet on a head sized target at a measly 25 yards. If you use 00 or 000 buckshot you are limited to about 25-35 yards for RELIABLY hitting your target with a stopping blow. Winging him with a pellet in the arm isn't enough to stop him in most cases. Slugs are maxed out accuracy wise at 100-125 yards.

2) Ammo is heavy. You could have 4 .223 SP rds (or 3 7.62x39) for every shotgun round you carry. 3) Gun has low ammo capacity (5-9 rds typically). In a close range fight, you may run out before you run out of fighters, and encounter problem #4) Ammo is slow to reload. I can drop the mag of my CAR-15 and reload another in less than 4 seconds, whereas loading 5-9 rds of 12 ga will take you probably 3-5 times that long. 5) Try removing rounds from the mag tube in a hurry when your tactical situation changes (ie, you have a gun full of buckshot, and you have to engage a 50+ yard target. You have to empty the gun, and reload with slugs. 15+ seconds, and your enemy is probably doing something with all that time you gave him, isn't he? Probably shooting, or moving closer on you). 6) Try reloading that shotgun from the prone.

Shotguns are usually the last weapons that totalitarian govts take from the people because they are militarily worthless for most situations (govts are least afraid of shotguns ). I believe that most of the hype and mystique of shotguns is far overrated. It encourages people to use the least effective weapon instead of a good semi auto rifle (which the govt fears more than a shotgun).

Nonetheless, most people love shotguns, and hate anyone who dares to disparage their choice. It's as if you insulted their manhood. :)

I'd ditch the bolt actions. They were fine rifles in an era of fighting with bolt guns, but versus semi autos, nope. If you can ALWAYS arrange for a sniper type situation, where you shoot from 300+ yards, and never encounter close in enemies, the bolt can work fine. If you have a general combat situation where enemies can appear at any range, and be more than one of them, the bolt is an inferior choice.

The Marlin .22 can be useful, if it's accurate and reliable. Use it to arm a spouse who isn't that skillful. It's useful for small game, and can be made quiet if you know what I mean. Also, post-Chaos, even a .22 wound can be fatal.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), September 16, 1999.

Bryce

Those are .303 Enfeilds? And you have a Marlin .22? If the Marlin fires reliably I would say you are covered for rifles. You would be suprised what a good bolt action will do in the hands of a trained rifleman. If you want to train to be a good rifle men get Jeff Cooper's "Art of the Rifle". Read and learn. Get a good sling and your .303 will do just fine. You might want a semi-auto pistol for up close work, and you should have a hand gun anyway since it's easy to have with you all the time. And it sounds like your expecting the worst. You got alot of good advice on this tread. The fellow who said that all the arms discussed were more accurate than you is probably correct. They all shoot well out to 300 yards so go for reliability.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), September 16, 1999.

Ditch the AK...had one, never again. Awkward for the weight and shape of the mags, and web gear is a bitch to find. Built myself a M-4 Semi-auto for less than $750. (aslso known as the ar-15 shorty.) Bought a post-ban lower for $125 from Bushmaster (link above) This was the only part I needed an ffl for. All other parts bought thru mail order/gunshows. DPMS offers great internal parts kits. Got a Collapsable 4 point folding stock for $50, internal trigger parts, handle ect for another $50. Got the complete upper w/bolt charging handle headspaced ect for $500 +/-. Magazines were free as I was still on active duty at the time. Mind you according to federal law its illegal to build all of this on a pre-ban lower, but I've researched it, and the cops can't even tell the difference between pre/post lowers. only the Factory has that info. I've even got it registered with the police, and got 'grandfathered' for it. Rifle is now valued at $1500. Have fun!

-- Billy-Boy (Rakkasn@Yahoo.com), September 16, 1999.

". Mind you according to federal law its illegal to build all of this on a pre-ban lower, but"

I meant POST-ban

-- Billy-Boy (Rakkasn@Yahoo.com), September 16, 1999.

Late getting in on this conversation, but here goes...

.223, .308, and I believe I saw 30-06, and 7.62X39 are all good calibers if overpenetration is not an issue. If you shoot a BG after your stuff and the bullets overpenetrate and accidently injure or kill a neighbor or a loved one, then that was a bad choice of weapon, IMHO, of course.

To me, IMHO, you need a pistol to complete your armaments, and lots of ammo to practice with, for all the weapons. Practice a lot. At first, unless you are a natural, you will not hit much with a pistol. Practice at the distances you think you will need that weapon for. The .303's, 100 yards is a good distance. The .22, 75 yards. If you buy a pistol, measure the longest straight shot distance INSIDE your house, and then practice at that range, as that will be the longest distance you will need it for.

Practice, practice, practice!!!!!

Safety.... take a gun safety course if you haven't already...

sniffin' the gun oil...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), September 16, 1999.

I don't want to monopolize Bryce's thread but I'd love some info on a good, inexpensive 9mm carbine. Keep in mind that I don't have a lot of money to spend and my understanding is that bullets kill regardless of caliber.

I've researched and come up with a Hi-Point 9mm with 10 rd mag at about $210 to $270 for one with a "laser sight". It's made and assembled in the US. This is something within my price range. Does anyone have any information or advice regarding this weapon, additional mag capacity, etc?

Thanks.

-- I'm not here (I never@posted.this), September 16, 1999.

Simple solution Hi-Point = P.O.S. My best freind had one of their carbines, same one the lil sociopaths in Columbine used. 10 round stamped sheetmetal mag, prone to jamming. a real P.O.S. Worst was the plastic used in the grip moulding was a soft non-impact type and suseptable to heat malformation. Also as the magazines were fed into it, the sharp edges cut the hell out of the cheap plastic, rendering magazine security and seating to nil. We refer to it as a 'ghetto gun' or a 'Wop-Nine.' With weapons, (US made) you get what you pay for. Stick w/ the Ruger 9 Carbine, or get a decent handgun with a long barrel. screw the Hi-point tho...its a lawsuit waiting to happen!

-- Billy-Boy (Rakkasn@Yahoo.com), September 16, 1999.

Can anyone recommend any inexpensive semi-autos in .223, other than the mini-14 or the AR-15 ? My main rifle is an SKS, but If I do happen to aquire some ammo that...uh...fell off the back of an army truck...I'd like to be able to use it. I'm not saying that a mini-14 is too expensive. I may get one. I just wonder what other choices there are.

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), September 16, 1999.

Biker:

There isn't a semi auto rifle that's less expensive than the Mini-14 to the best of my knowledge. Maybe a .223 bolt gun or single shot, but not a semi auto. Mini-14's are better than nothing, but in my experience, are very marginal. Accuracy stinks, and they can be fussy with magazines (avoid USA brand).

Unless you can afford a AR-15 series gun, you might as well stick with a SKS with 20-rd fixed mag.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), September 16, 1999.