OT: Watch Drudge page tonite, info on Delta Force involvement in Waco

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The subject says it all, check out the drudge report, information forth coming.

-- Claire (readingdrudge@aol.com), September 06, 1999

Answers

What is Delta Force? I have been so blind for so many years. Thanks

-- a mom (stupid@me.com), September 06, 1999.

Umm, Delta Force is the US Army's SPECWAR tactical recovery unit. Specializes in hostage recovery, and various specialized covert combat-intensive ops.

C

NONE BETTER to back you up, or come rescue you. If they're against you, you will never know it. They are typically DAMN GOOD!

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 06, 1999.


a mom: There is more info on Delta force on this thread:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001M5G Scroll down to the bottom, and there is an interesting article.

-- Claire (readingdrudge@aol.com), September 06, 1999.


Well, Chuck, "rescue" apparently does not mean the same thing to everyone. For example, it was the FBI "Hostage Rescue" team that was at Waco. Those innocent children definitely did not get rescued. Shot. Burned. Definitely not rescued.

For that matter, Delta Force was also at Waco. Some say shooting, though that is apparently not definitive yet. But at this point, I sure would think it likely....

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 06, 1999.

Here is the report:

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 06, 1999 21:30:00 ET XXXXX

GOVERNMENT INFORMANT: DELTA FORCE INVOLVED IN WACO SHOOT-OUT

**World Exclusive**

**Must Credit DRUDGE REPORT**

WASHINGTON -- A former government officer has told investigators that members of the secret Army unit Delta Force said they participated in a shoot-out during the final assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

The witness, according to congressional sources, has already named names -- and will soon offer his account under oath!

The development caused panic and confusion at the top levels of the Justice Department and the FBI over the holiday weekend, leaving one top official scrambling for details.

FBI Director Freeh has demanded a full briefing, one agency source divulged late Monday.

Developing...

Meanwhile, congressional investigators are growing convinced that infrared film taken by an FBI surveillance aircraft at 9,000 feet on the final day of the Waco standoff does appear to show U.S. armed forces firing into into the church compound.

"We are looking at the footage frame-by-frame... most of us have grown convinced that it does show snipers unloading from the rear of a tank," an investigator for the House Government Reform Committee told the DRUDGE REPORT.

Former FBI agent Richard Schwein, a supervisor at Waco, said charges of government gunfire were "absolutely false."

"False, absolutely false," he said on FOX NEWS SUNDAY. "No FBI agent fired any rounds from their weapons at Waco.

There were no Delta Forces or special operations soldiers in an operational capacity at Waco.

"And everyone on our side, and the FBI's side, were in armored vehicles, so I don't know how you'd have films of anybody firing into the back of the building. No one was on foot, because we had no body armor that would stop the rounds they were firing."

WAVIER WONDER

Use of active military personnel against civilians without presidential decree is a violation of federal law.

Late last month White House spokesman Joe Lockhart first told reporters that he had no information on the waiver issue.

[August 26, 1999; Thursday]

Q Joe, why was the Army's Delta Force present on the scene the day that Waco burned?

MR. LOCKHART: I would refer you to the Justice Department. I don't have information on the Delta Force one way or the other.

Q The reason I asked is because since the law prohibits the military being used against civilians, I wondered whether the White House either, A, requested it or, B, President Clinton signed a waiver for it.

MR. LOCKHART: I don't have any information on that. Again, I'd refer you to Justice. I don't have any independent information on their role, if any.

The next day, when asked again about any possible waiver, Lockhart offered more details.

[August 27, 1999, Friday]

Q What did the White House know about the potential operational involvement of Delta Force in the Waco siege?

MR. LOCKHART: I think that's an issue that was dealt with at the time. And as we said yesterday, the president was not asked to sign a waiver, nor were we aware of any activity that would have required a waiver.

But, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned, Lockhart may still not have the full story.

One witness has told congressional investigators that in April of 1993, in response to a press inquiry, a White House spokesman stated privately that a "wavier is on the president's desk" that would have authorized military intervention.

A development that will cause battle during the upcoming congressional hearings on Waco.

FILED BY MATT DRUDGE

----------------------------------------------------------- Reports are moved when circumstances warrant http://www.drudgereport.com for updates (c)DRUDGE REPORT 1999 Not for reproduction without permission of the author



-- claire (readingdrudge@aol.com), September 06, 1999.



Interesting wording: "One witness has told congressional investigators that in April of 1993, in response to a press inquiry, a White House spokesman stated privately that a "wavier is on the president's desk" that would have authorized military intervention."

It all depends on what the meaning of "on" is. Does "on the president's desk" mean - on his "to do" list? And WHEN in April was this inquiry? Before or after? We have seen from other reports that the Delta force was there for virtually the entire 51 day period. Wouldn't the waiver have been needed before they became involved? Or is after the incineration good enough? Sure would be nice to know who was the source of that press inquiry, and who was the witness who talked to congressional investigators (and when). So many missing pieces of the puzzle. (sounds like Y2K)

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 06, 1999.


bullets, fires, lies, and video

-- red blustering faces (coming@TV.near.you), September 06, 1999.

Congress should demand to shave Bill's head. I bet they find "666" there...Developing.

-- Uncle Bob (UNCLB0B@Y2KOK.ORG), September 06, 1999.

off

-- cleanup (clean@up.crew), September 07, 1999.

Well, let's see.

I did NOT mean to suggest that they had no part in the events. I was expressing my understanding from contacts with ex- members and ex- and current hardware suppliers, ref the abilities and basic charge. Also my understanding of the basic charge comes from the (I believe) Beckwith biography. [Basic charge of the unit]

As far as needing a waiver to be consulted, and to offer advice (including showing up and offering both strategic and tactical counsel) as well as showing up in unmarked uniforms/subdued uniforms, there is NO WHERE in the code that says they can't be a part of the planning group, can't offer options, etc. to the strategic and tactical coordinators.

The waiver becomes a requirement when the involvement progresses to the fireground. And to the actual taking part in the action.

I have very little doubt that there will come to light a signed and dated waiver for the required date and actions.

Alternatively, you should look CAREFULLY at the denial by the FBI spokesman. NOWHERE does he mention ATF, Marshals, etc. He SPECIFICALLY, and CATAGORICALLY denies FBI, and DELTA FORCE involvement insofar as firing into the compound. Denies having assets on foot (which ought to be easy to verify, look at the videos) due to an inability to outfit assets with the apropriate protective gear (a statement I would REALLY want looked at closely).

In short, I believe that this is still a developing story, which is taking attention from Y2K, and I have to wonder just exactly WHAT THE F$@* is so bad that they are trying to keep hidden by trying to keep the media busy with this.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 07, 1999.



Chuck,

Recall from threads earlier in the year that Delta Force was taking part in the Urban Warrior exercises being conducted around the nation, and that there was some documentation (Diane S.?) that they were using Y2K disruptions as a backdrop for some of their training scenarios. This may not be as off topic as it appears.

Pulled this up from WorldNetDaily archives. Note the date---February 25, 1999. The article quotes an anonymous Delta Force insider stating that Delta Force troops were at Waco, and that they were firing on civilians. Looks like WorldNetDaily is vindicated again...and scooped the mainstream press by several months.

THURSDAY FEBRUARY 25, 1999
By David M. Bresnahan ) 1999 WorldNetDaily.com

A secret military organization took part in the raid at Waco, Texas, and has been training in civilian areas using live fire. It often ventures into civilian areas without permission from local authorities, according to a former member.

The Combat Applications Group is the secret organization within the Special Operations Command operating out of several military bases.

"Presidential Decision Directive 25 is the authority given to them to operate and to be not covered by posse comitatus. This is the Delta Force. It's also known as the CAG (Combat Applications Group). That's a cover name for their organization behind the fence at Ft. Bragg, (North Carolina)," explained a former Special Forces member who spoke to WorldNetDaily on condition of anonymity.

PDD 25 has been classified as top secret. All that is available to the public is an executive summary. Details of the document will be detailed in another article in this series.

Members of the elite Delta Force and Night Stalkers are carefully selected and screened from Special Forces and other groups in all branches of the military. The CAG is primarily run by the Rangers, according to a source, who has many years of experience with both the group, and with clandestine operations.

The Night Stalkers are actually the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment Airborne. Their job is to transport Delta Force troops to an area for a mission, then retrieve them. They are experts at flying black-painted helicopters just over treetops in the dark of night using special night vision equipment.

Their motto is "Death waits in the dark." They wear emblems that combine Greek mythology and occult symbols.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him . . . to kill with sword and with hunger, and with death," reads the Night Stalkers creed, taken from Revelation 6:8 in the Bible.

The Night Stalkers have a website filled with occult symbols of death, Greek mythical symbols, and writings mocking the creation story of the Bible, among many references to killing and death. It is no wonder why so many military members have expressed concern over this group.

A source confirmed the Night Stalkers and Delta Force were involved in the raid at Waco. They considered it a great opportunity for training and experience.

Delta Force soldiers are handpicked and are trained killers. They are expert at rescuing hostages, SWAT operations and surprise raids to kill an enemy.

"Yes indeed, these are the same people that were at the back of the (Waco) compound -- not the FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team). They were at the back of the compound at Waco and were shooting the people coming out. I did see the FLIRS (special films) at SOCOM (Special Operations Command). The HRT is a clone of them. They work very closely with the HRT," explained a knowledgeable source who requested anonymity.

The equipment used by the FBI HRT is identical to that used by the Delta Force. Whenever an HRT deploys, they use the Night Stalkers to get them in and out.

The Night Stalkers and Delta Force were recently confirmed to be involved in Operation Last Dance, conducting live-fire raids on sites in civilian areas in parts of Texas. Army public affairs officers claim the civilian sites are used because the elite forces get bored using military bases for training.

"In a manner to justify their fairly large budget, they have been performing these exercises. Not that they just get bored. It's political empire type things. Pretty vainly in some respects. In order to justify their budgets, and in order to keep them alive," said one source.

The Night Stalkers left Texas ready to plan similar exercises in some other unsuspecting U.S. neighborhood. They left behind a storm of controversy and frightened residents who have not stopped complaining. Some are even planning legal action.

"They usually pay for all their damage by the way. They have a bag person there, and they usually pay for all their damage with cash. You just make a claim to them and they pay you off right there on the spot," claimed the source.

City officials in Kingsville, Texas, where Operation Last Dance began, confirm that the Army Special Forces Command from Fort Bragg, North Carolina, has paid for the destruction of one building and the heavy damage to another.

Some military sources, too, are concerned with the way the CAG has evolved, and he is very concerned about the way the group has been granted authority to do just about anything with total immunity from the law, including the Posse Comitatus Act.

"They will follow and do whatever the president tells them to do. In that regard, they are somewhat dangerous," said one source of his concerns about PDD 25.

He claims the CAG forces were used by the FBI in the raid at Waco. He said he was repulsed when he personally observed films of the raid, known as FLIRS, in the U.S. SOCOM offices. Others watching were not affected in the same way.

"They (Delta Force) were shooting people who were coming out of the building," the source described. He said they considered Waco an opportunity for training.

"Everything is training for them. You train like you fight and you fight like you train. There's very little distinction between the two," he said.

The Delta Force wore the same black SWAT-style uniform as the FBI HRT agents, with the exception of a small insignia.

"The U.S. SOCOM released them and then they were under the direct control of the Department of Justice," explained the source. "Their orders did not come from U.S. SOCOM."

"I saw those FLIRS right after the action. There was no gasping, or anything like that, which I found to be somewhat repugnant."

"That's why I wanted to make a distinction between them (CAG) and the Special Forces, because the real Special Forces are really not into that activity of going in and rousting up people or hostage rescue. Special Forces still has a special operations mission, of course. They do fall under the posse comitatus act. They do not work here in the United States."

"There's the white side and the black side. Special Forces are generally on the white side and the CAG is on the black side," he explained.

This source is not a fan of Delta Force. He doesn't like the way it operates, the character of the people involved, or their commander-in-chief, President Bill Clinton. He says the Delta Force is made up of programmed soldiers who don't think for themselves.

"Delta Force is particularly screened. That's why they don't have many Special Forces people in there. Typically they are Rangers who are less thoughtful about what they are required to do and will fire when ordered to. Whereas the regular Special Forces guy is trained to think. He knows difference between a lawful order and an unlawful order.

"If they are told to shoot somebody they will shoot them, you know, without question," claims the source.

He says the Delta Force operations taking place around the country will continue because they are trying to create a need for their organization, and thereby justify their existence. He also says the actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco were also a test to see if the American public would tolerate such actions.

"We failed a test with Ruby Ridge and Waco. The American people failed miserably. These were obvious tests, in a manner of speaking. They wanted to see how the American people would react to this thing. Why in the world would you attack somebody like David Koresh? I mean with the forces that they did," he lamented.

----snip-----

link

Interesting aside...the Night Stalker website is back on line. It disappeared in July, and just reappeared within the past week.

-- RUOK (RUOK@yesiam.com), September 07, 1999.


Another one from WorldNetDaily---March 1, 1999---tying Delta Force to both Y2K and military action at Waco.

MONDAY MARCH 01, 1999

ARMED AND DANGEROUS
Terrorism and the Y2K crisis
Military prepares for double-edged threat

By David M. Bresnahan
) 1999 WorldNetDaily.com

This is the last of a three-part series of articles about the controversial elite Night Stalkers and the Delta Force. Interviews have been conducted by WorldNetDaily with numerous current and former members of the group, other military personnel, and others. Some sources in the series will be on the record, and some will not be able to be disclosed. All were checked and verified to be certain they are who they claim to be, and that they are in a position to know the information they have disclosed.

The U.S. military is preparing for the threat of terrorist attacks in U.S. cities as well as problems associated with the Y2K computer bug that could provide cover for foreign and domestic enemies to strike at critical infrastructure, according to high-ranking and knowledgeable sources.

A former member of U.S. Special Forces, who has also been involved in many intelligence operations of the Central Intelligence Agency, FBI, Internal revenue Service and others, is concerned about the threats and how the military might respond.

-----Snip-----

The source believes terrorists, like Bin Laden, may have plans to take advantage of Y2K computer bug disruptions to inflict damage on the U.S.

-------Snip---------

The threat of a terrorist strike within the U.S. is very real, and weakness because of Y2K (perceived or real) will provide the opportunity many different forces may be looking for. Bin Laden is known to be planning strategic attacks that may come at the start of the new year.

--------Snip-------

The Special Forces source is not only concerned about threats to U.S. security from terrorists, he is also concerned about problems within our own military. He has pointed to an increase in live-fire training exercises by the Night Stalkers and Delta Force as an example of a dangerous change in plans for potential use of the military as a domestic police force.

---------Snip----------

He says he wants the public to know what is going on.

"Look. All the bad guys know all of this. Why shouldn't the American citizens know this. I'm not disclosing anything that's a national defense secret that would be injurious to the United States of America or its Constitution. I am a constitutionalist. A strict constitutionalist, and you'll find that most Special Forces people are like that. Some of the activities of the Delta Force have besmirched the honor, integrity, and the reputation of the Army Special Forces. I don't like that. We don't believe in firing upon our own people and killing innocent women and children as they escape from a burning building and dozing them back in there."

This source claims he has witnessed military film evidence showing Delta Force members shooting civilians trying to escape out the back door of the burning compound at Waco, Texas.

-------Snip----------

The recent training exercise, Operation Last Dance, was thought to be practice for an actual mission to attack a group of people who refused to turn in their guns when ordered to do so.

------Snip-------------

He says the government raids on Ruby Ridge and Waco were tests to determine whether the American people would tolerate the use of military in a domestic police action.

-------Snip-----------

Link

-- RUOK (RUOK@yesiam.com), September 07, 1999.


http://www.dabney.com/WacoMuseum/

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), September 07, 1999.

More on the subject from Newsmax:Tuesday September 7, 12:32 AM

Koresh Met with BATF Agents Before Raid

Why did the BATF launch its bloody Feb. 28, 1993 assault on the Branch Davidian compound -- when, just nine days before, Koresh had openly welcomed two BATF agents onto his property and actually practiced target shooting with them?

That's the question posed by a document unearthed by Waco expert David Hardy, which reports the incident as part of the BATF's surveillance of Koresh and his followers.

On Hardy's Web site, Attorney General Janet Reno, congressional investigators, the White House and even the mainstream press can read the Treasury Department's own report about Koresh's incredible meeting with two BATF agents:

"Synopsis of Surveillance -- Feb. 19, 1993; FRIDAY

"On Feb. 19, 1993, Special Agents Robert Rodriguez and Jeffrey Brzozowski, in an undercover capacity, went to the Davidian Compound and met with Leader David Koresh and two other male members for the purpose of shooting the AR-15 rifles. When both agents arrived at the compound they were asked to enter the compound and wait for David Koresh.

"When David Koresh arrived, he examined the two AR-15 rifles very carefully. It was obvious that David Koresh had a lot of knowledge about the two firearms. After examining the firearms, Special Agents Rodriguez and Brzozowski followed David Koresh and two males through the inside of the compound towards the back. Special Agents Rodriguez and Brzozowski walked through the halls of the compound and through the kitchen.

"Numerous women were observed working in the kitchen and then observed numerous males working in the back at the shelter area. Before the shooting started, David Koresh went back inside the compound and brought some .223 caliber rounds for the agents to shoot.

"Special Agents Rodriguez and Brzozowski, along with David Koresh shot the AR-15 rifles. David Koresh displayed an ability to shoot the rifles very well. After shooting the rifles, Special Agent Rodriguez allowed David Koresh and two males to shoot Rodriguez's .38 super pistol. During this time, David Koresh returned to the compound and returned (with) two Sig-Sauer pistols. He returned with a model 226 and 220. David Koresh provided the 9mm and .45 caliber ammunition.

"David Koresh also stated that he owned a Ruger, 10-22 caliber rifle and other weapons. Mr. Koresh stated that he believed that every person had the right to own firearms and protect their homes.

"As Special Agents Rodriguez and Brzozowski left the compound a quick observation of the east side of the compound was made as requested by the SRT Leader, Ken Latimer. The side wall appeared to be approximately 16 to 18 feet high.

"No photographs were taken during this meeting."

An actual copy of the above document can be viewed at: http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/DK_Shooting.html

-- Claire (readingdrudge@aol.com), September 07, 1999.


GOVERNMENT INFORMANT IN WACO CASE GIVEN PROTECTION; SAYS FEDS THREATENED HIM, SON

-- reading (drudge@too.now), September 07, 1999.


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