Once again, way off topic. Want to whine about it? You shoulda been bright enough to read the title! Nobody pushed the mouse button for you.

When does a police officer become a police officer?

I would REALLY like to hear some LEO's chime in on this question.

In my last post regarding drawing lines a wise person pointed out that you never know who is breaking your door down.

That's very true.

The first and last scenarios described in that post involved home invasions where the only substantial difference were the markings on the clothes. One had gang colors, the other 'POLICE' in yellow letters. I believe both have happened pretty much as described in the past.

The whole idea of no knock warrants has always bothered me greatly. I completely understand the reasoning behind them. As an officer you don't want to give armed and dangerous criminals a chance to destroy evidence or make ready to kill the officers conducting the raid.

I understand this.

But what if you are wrong? What if you have the wrong address? What if your 'tip' was bogus? What if the innocent elderly retired black preacher in that apartment has a heart condition and dies after you pull a Nazi on him? (this should sound familiar, it really happened).

I know actually knocking and announcing can be dangerous, but the other side of the coin means danger for innocent civilians AND officers too

So, the QUESTION! When does a cop become a cop? Lets say somebody smashes in your door and you shoot him. If he is an escaped con you get a reward and a pat on the back. If he has a badge in his pocket you go to jail or get killed. You have no idea which it is till AFTER it's all over. Sounds fair, right?

Lets say the guy laying in the pool of blood just inside the shattered door IS a cop. When did he become a cop legally? I think I know the answer. As far as the law is concerned he has been a cop since he pinned the badge on. Right or wrong, no matter what he was doing, legal or illegal, he was a cop. If he had a no knock warrant and there are 20 more officers outside it's likely you will die right there. If he had no warrant and was just breaking your door down because he mistook you for the guy who jilted his daughter, guess what, you still get a free trip to prison riding in a car surrounded by armed men who know you just killed their coworker.

Am I right or wrong on this? How about all you officers who follow this forum. When does a cop become a cop? Does a citizen have any right to self defense against an officer for any reason? How about in reality? Are the police above the law?

You know, this would not bother me so much if there was some demarcation. If there was some way to be sure the guy with the gun giving orders was a police officer or not. In my mind police offers wear uniforms or look like Joe Friday. They knock and ask to enter. They are polite and respectful. The LOOK like the good guys. You want to help them cause they ARE the good guys.

But... that's just in my mind. Reality is different. A guy in a black ninja suit and mask breaking down your door at 3 am looks like a terrorist. Plain and simple. In FLA my employer pointed out the window at an approaching customer and said "What do you think this guy does for a living?" I look at him and instantly said "drug dealer". Of course you know the right answer. He was FDLE. His trunk was full of tricks and disguises.

You know what I REALLY want? What I really want if for some officers to tell me what the right thing to do is. How do I know what's right?

Pretend it's YOU breaking down my door at 3am and my dogs are barking and I'm at the top of the stairs with an M1A and a million candle power spot. How do I know it's YOU at that door? How do I KNOW it's a cop and not some scum bag? How do I tell the difference? Anybody can yell 'police'. Anybody can stencil 'police' on a jacket with a can of yellow paint. How do I tell the difference between dirty rotten thieving scum and an officer who's got the wrong address?

-- Art Welling (artw@lancnews.infi.net), August 25, 1999

Answers

That's why no-knock searches in the middle of the night are so STUPID! One of these days, there's going to be a massacre, with either the cops getting shot up, the citizens getting shot up, or both. Most of the time, these cops claim to have announced they were police before kicking down the door, etc. They have every reason to lie.

Here in Van Buren Co, Michigan, we had a few thugs kicking down doors and killing people. They weren't cops. It's not hard to understand why people in this neighborhood where this happened would be nervous.

Basically, it's cowardice on the part of the police. They go in at 3 AM because no one suspects they are going to come in then. It's terrorism, any way you slice it, and it's just another one of many reasons why we should end the drug war.

Tim

-- Tim the Y2K nut (tmiley@yakko.cs.wmich.edu), August 25, 1999.

Art,

Am I right or wrong on this? How about all you officers who follow this forum. When does a cop become a cop? Does a citizen have any right to self defense against an officer for any reason? How about in reality? Are the police above the law?

IANAL (I am not a lawyer), but it's my understanding that a cop STOPS being a cop when he exceeds his authority. You are allowed to defend yourself when a cop crosses the line and uses excessive force. Under no circumstances are you required to lie down on the floor while officers are kicking you and not defend yourself.

Shooting an intruder is a difficult call; you really don't know who they are. Personally, I'd rather explain my actions to a jury of my peers than wind up dead six feet under.

Like I said in the other thread, if they knock and have a warrant, I'll let them in. Come busting through my door and I will defend myself and my family.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), August 25, 1999.

Art

Boy-howdy, did you ever hit the nail on the head with that question!! Here where's I live they shoot( seven police officers all fireing at once) 70year old men that are drunk and resisting arrest. They shoot( four police officers all fireing at once) drugged up young women sleeping in cars. They shoot ( three police officers all fireing at once )Bag ladies on the street corner with a pareing knife. AND they all get off scott FREE!!! I have known some very nice guys that are in the law enforcement. My son is one. However the 'Idea' that is being pushed at the trainig seminars is that the police are more important than the citizens they are sworn to Serve AND PROTECT!! I say, that if they aren't willing to give their life in the line of duty, they should go bag groceries in a supermarket! If they want to be hooded ninjas they shood join a criminal gang. Why do they wear those hoods anyway? Are they afraid of being identified? I would think a cop would want to be known...as a good guy. Not someone to be afraid of.

-- Joelman (I'majoelman@motown.com), August 25, 1999.

In the mean time, as you're awaiting your Constitutionally guaranteed "speedy" trial, you get to sit and rot in jail. All your possessions will be ransacked, destroyed, or taken in as "evidence". Your children will be taken away from you, and your spouse will probably be sitting in jail too.

By the time the trial happens, you've been fired, your house has been foreclosed by the bank, and your credit is ruined.

If you're found NOT GUILTY, you may or may not get tried again under Federal/State jurisdiction for some BS charge such as a "civil rights violation".

So even if you get out, your life is over.

Jolly

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), August 25, 1999.

Art

A police officer is a police officer from the moment he puts on the badge. Here's to him, God bless him.

Any armed group kicking in your door is attacking your home. You must react instantly.

If the people kicking in your door are police, you can't know that until it's too late. People will now be injured or killed tragically.

If some desk pilot writes a policy that tells police that they should kick in doors as the normal way to serve a warrant, and those police end up being shot 'cause they were sent to my home trained to act in so foolish a manner, then if I'm alive when it's over me and that desk pilot are going to fight.

You see, I appreciate what the police do for us, what they have to go through in the line of duty, and how difficult their jobs have become in these times. I support the law enforcement community actively. If I am tricked in to killing some of them, I will take it poorly.

And I wouldn't be suprised if the no knock warrant policy spreading throughout the country is a way to divide gun owning citizens and LEAs. Right now, except for political appointees, the overwhelming majority of police support private firearm ownership. Putting them in this situation will certainly change their minds. And it sure makes law abiding gun owners look irresponsible if these sort of confrontations are fostered and encouraged. And yet another division would appear in our once homogenous society.

If you can't beat a Nation militarily, destroy the underlying society. Split them in to factions striving with each other over the coveted "most victimized" status. Have them fight with each other over government handouts and watch them squabble over money that was once theirs in the first place. Divide and conquer. Destroy the enemies will to fight.

Or perhaps I'm just paranoid.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), August 25, 1999.

Oh, and I forgot to mention this. Anyone can readily BUY jackes/BDUs with SWAT, DEA, POLICE, ATF, FBI or just abouot anything else printed on them. Not that you couldn't make these things at home anyway, but if gangbangers can figure out that yelling "police" will give them an advantage, I'm sure that obtaining official looking uniforms hasn't been over looked as contributing to a favorable outcome.

God Bless our LEOs.

And keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), August 25, 1999.

Nobody will be busting down my door. I have a 2x4 frame that I made, that butts up against the door, across the entryway, and fits snug against a load-bearing wall-corner. They can beat themselves bloody for 20 minutes trying to get in that way. By the time the 3rd thump against my door is heard, we'll be armed and ready. My basement windows are sealed up with 3/4" marine plywood and 15-20 3" wood screws per window. You'd have to drive a truck through them to get in that way. The back garage door is double barred with 2x4's. No entry that way either.

We have gas masks, so tear gas is a non-issue as well. Also getting two sets of night vision goggles. Whoever wants in this house is going to have to WORK at it. Hard. And they'll sure be dead before they're through. And that's a promise.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), August 25, 1999.

The scenario of pigs breaking down the wrong doors and killing (or causing heart attacks) of the wrong people has already happened many times. It's not a "thought excercise" scenario.

This is a police state. You don't usually realize it, because you don't see the cops with machine guns on every other corner. But their patrol cars have a nice assortment of stuff, as well as the SWATs in their HQs.

This became a police state when "peace officers" became "police officers".

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 25, 1999.

Ok Art, I will attempt to chime in here per your invitation. Two things first though:

1) I was never a SWAT Officer and I never had to BREAK DOWN any doors during my 10 yrs as an Officer.

2) I am gonna don my asbestos underwear as I expect to get royally flamed for jumping in here.

Ok that said I will try to answer your question: When does a police officer become a police officer?

As it was told to me, the first time you put on the badge and are sworn in from that moment on you are a Police Officer. You can be off duty but until you resign or get kicked off the force you are always a Police Officer.

snip: Am I right or wrong on this? How about all you officers who follow this forum. When does a cop become a cop? Does a citizen have any right to self defense against an officer for any reason? How about in reality? Are the police above the law?  Snip:

Tough question to answer  I will give it a try though. Does a cop have a right  to break the law? No. In most locals, a cop breaking the law gets treated the same way as any other law breaker. But does that always happen? No I am sorry to say.

Are the courts a little more likely to take it easy on a cop versus a civilian? Yes. Is this right? Not in my book. Does a citizen have a right to self defense against a cop? If the cop is violating the law  drunk driving, rape, robbery. In these situations, a cop is just like a criminal and has no special protection under the law  now that being said, Can an Officer get away with the above under our current legal system? Yes and it happens all too often.

The worst area of offense is using excessive force without sufficient reason. You get into grey areas when it is in a resisting situation. Technically, if you show resistance to an officer during the legal carrying out of his Lawful duties he has the right to use sufficient force to subdue you. And the sufficient part is what gets very grey and it can lead to Rodney King style stupidity on the part of the police. Excesses on excesses.

I am sorry but I will not attempt to answer everybodies statements here as it will take me all night and I will never keep up.

-- ExCop (yinadral@juno.com), August 25, 1999.

Ahhh, but if a Police officer is breaking the Law, then it is LEGAL to resist...I will have to dig into my notes to find the Statute from USC.....Ahhh, this might be it:

Title 18 USC section 242

US Code as of: 01/26/98 Sec. 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law

Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

No, after reading this I see that it is just proscribing the penalties for the Officer...I'll have to search more later...gotta leave work now.

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), August 25, 1999.

Kick my door down and you are dead,I don't care who you are.

-- Daryll (twincrk@hotmail.com), August 25, 1999.

Excop,

I'm glad to see you offer some comments-- despite the hostilities. I think that what mostly fuels the anger in this thread and in your last thread is the sense of vulnerability people feel to the peace officer who may or may not exercise his/her awesome powers according to the spirit of the law and/or with prudence and wisdom. Maybe, I'm wrong. There may be quite a few people here who know or feel that they have been treated unjustly.

I do wonder how the family in Washington, D.C. felt as FBI, ATF, and other agents and officers stormed their home looking for the makings of bombs... tearing things up, making a mess, destroying preparations, and having the media right there to make a un-anonymous public example of what could happen to a family that prepares for Y2K. I'm sure you agree this was a terrifying and ostentatious abuse of police powers.

You might provide some insight into what these individual agents and officers were thinking as they stormed this family's home, why they each didn't publicly apologize to the family in front of a camera, and if these same agents and officers would do it exactly the same way the next time (and why?)? Or what would a good cop have done and not done?

Would a good cop kick in doors to confiscate guns and other materials from a family whose members have no criminal record-- if a law required them to confiscate guns and ammunition from registered owners? Would having a police association kids club sticker on the door help?

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), August 26, 1999.

Stan, I'll pop in here before Yin. A LOT depends on what the cop has been told by his superiors. If the folks involved have been represented as, well you fill in the blank but make it BAD, then he won't have the impetus to do any appologizing. He MIGHT question the next one, but not really hard as these things (warrant servicing) are a couple a day incidents (at least here in Cleve thay are, at about 750 per year for our SWAT Team.).

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 26, 1999.

Stan,

I will try to answer what you have asked. What do the officers think when they go on raids? (now remember, I was not a SWAT Officer, I am only stating from my experience)

Most Officers are probably going on what their superiors told them about the "event at hand". So you tend to end up with a group of Officers doing what they have been told to do and following whatever story line about the event has been told to them. There is very little freedom of thought here because too much thinking about a potential incident could make you hesitate at a moment that might get you or one of your fellow officers killed.

Cops are not robots (at least not GOOD ones), they are constantly evaluating the situation to determine the probabilty of danger and the appropriate level of response.

There is one thing that maybe helpful to remember, there are two sides to every encounter. The actions of the Officer are one side of it but remember that your action or reaction can influence the whole event and change the way the outcome resolves itself.

Would a "Good" Officer kick in doors to take guns from lawful owners? I was speaking to the local Police Chief in my area about this same question. His answer was "No I would not do that", and neither would I.

-- ExCop (yinadral@juno.com), August 26, 1999.

I'm willing to grant that their may be some good cops. If/when the SHTF, we'll find out which are which. My operating rule is, since they are paid by a government, I'm assuming all are pigs until they prove themselves human.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 28, 1999.