I suppose the OT and LONG in the title would thin out those who complain about off topic stuff on the board. If it didn't and you desire to complain, feel free to bite me.

Here's the questions. Look at the scenarios that follow and think about this. Is there a line to be drawn here? Where is it? What do you do about it? At one time or another in one country or another all of these things have happened. If you want to, please comment.

Any experienced LEO's that would like to massage these scenario's to make them fit reality better, please do.

THERE IS A KNOCK AT THE DOOR OF YOUR HOME. YOU OPEN THE DOOR AND:

1) As the door begins to open its ripped from your hands with a great force as men dressed in black come rushing in. They are yelling at you and storming through the house. The first one in knocks you to the floor and lands with a knee on your body nearly knocking you out. You can't speak. The man yells at you "Where's the money? Where's the Guns?" You are speechless and confused. The man on your chest with the gun pointed at your head yells to the others in another language and you begin to see they all have gang colors on their clothes. They wear masks and don't use names. You see your wife driven down the stairs at gun point as your kids are carried screaming past you.

2) As the door opens its forced by a large man who pushes you back into the room. You see another outside who stays on the porch looking around the street. The guy who pushed you says "Hey, Just don't move and maybe you'll live!" He begins ransacking your house right in front of you. You can see he has a gun in his belt. The whole time he's emptying drawers and rifling closets he's demanding you tell him where your money is and where you keep your guns. You see his face matches the picture that's been on TV all day, the escaped lifer in jail for murder. He demands you give him money, food, and any guns you have.

3) The door opens and it's your neighbor, the real pain in the behind who's always telling everyone else how to live. He begins to tell you how he's passing out pamphlets for the cities gun buy back program and he figured you would want one since he knows you have so many guns and of course he tells you how he plans to mention that to the police while he's volunteering at the buy back table this afternoon. He hints at the idea of how he might forget about you if he had some extra cash in his pocket to go out tonight instead.

4) The door opens to find your other neighbor standing there. He's nervous and asks to come in. You let him in and sit down to hear a story about how he and his wife are worried over the recent rash of break ins. He would like to borrow a shotgun for a while and have you teach him how to use it. He offers to buy it from you at fair market value if you will sell it.

5) The door opens to your friend who wants to come in and yak a while. After the small talk he gets to the point. The neighborhood is putting together a watch. It's a serious program nothing short of their own neighborhood private police. They want you to join. If you won't join they want you to 'donate' a weapon to the cause.

6) The door opens and it's a local police officer. He explains that it's a routine check of the neighborhood and asks if you've had any break ins lately that were not reported... have you had any weapons stolen.. could he see yours to verify they are indeed safe? It's all for your own good of course. They just want to be sure no weapons are getting into criminals hands.

7) The door opens to find a local officer and his partner. He asks to come in and speak with you. He tells you the local city council has passed a law that all weapons inside city limits must be registered and inspected and since you are a known gun owner he'd like to see them and fill out the paperwork to comply with the new law. It's all very civil and businesslike.

8) As the door opens it's pushed from your hands by a uniformed police officer. He tells you to step aside as two other officers come into your home. He tells you that the city council has ordered all firearms confiscated until further notice for the safety of the community. He tells you you'll be given a receipt for whatever they take. They don't have guns drawn but make it clear that 'no' is not an option. He also mentions any large amounts of hoarded cash will also be taken on the councils authority. You'll be given a receipt for that as well. He hands you a printed notice with your name and address hand written in the blanks. He holds a sheaf of such notices in his hand.

9) The door opens and you are pushed aside as men rush in with guns drawn. They are accompanied by a local uniformed officer who orders you to comply and tell them the location of any weapons you own, as well as any supply of cash or hoarded supplies. It's all to be 'requisitioned' by the city for the good of the people. They make it clear they will take everything they find and begin rifling closets and dumping out drawers.

10) As the door begins to open its ripped from your hands with a great force as men dressed in black come rushing in. They are yelling at you and storming through the house. The first one in knocks you to the floor and lands with a knee on your body nearly knocking you out. You can't speak. The man yells at you "Where's the money? Where's the Guns?" You are speechless and confused. The man on your chest with the gun pointed at your head yells to the others that you aren't cooperating and you notice they all have large yellow words printed on their black jackets: "POLICE". They don't have badges or name tags. They wear masks. Your wife is driven down the stairs at gun point as your kids are carried screaming out the door.

-- Art Welling (artw@lancnews.infi.net), August 25, 1999

Answers

I vote for #5.

Out here in rural America, where it takes an hour to get LEOs out to the farm, most "policing" is done by individual choice....you know, if that strange car goes down the road, lots of older housebound ladies get on the phone -- and the car's progression is tracked until it stops, and then the occupants are discussed in high detail. Now, if we "arm" those little old ladies with CBs.....

Anita Evangelista

-- Anita Evangelista (ale@townsqr.com), August 25, 1999.

I don't open the door with out knowing what's outside. I have a 357 two steps away. I have had occasion to let a nerdowell inlaw in at night to use the phone. I discreetly kept him covered the whole time. (This man had previously threatened his mother with a butcher knife). When they come for the guns or money they have lost their right to survive, and if I die to make the point, so be it.

-- rambo (rambo@thewoods.com), August 25, 1999.

Like anita above, I'm in a rural area. my perimeter defense lets me know when a car hits my quarter mile driveway. If more than one man shows up and/or looks threatening, I grab my concealed shotgun before they ever reach the door.

MY worst case scenario goes something like: I'm at work when a fellow gun owner comes into the office and tells me to turn on the radio. An Executive Order has just been enacted outlawing personal gun ownership, and concealed carry permit holders are being targeted for confiscation troops. Do I head home, hoping they don't beat me there? Do I now stay home to defend my rights and my property? Has civil war been (implicitly or explicitly) declared?

-- anon (anon@anon.anon), August 25, 1999.

The door does NOT open. I stand behind it (with my Mossberg shotgun) and ask who's there. My wife and teen son, both with semi-automatic weapons, cover both the rear door, as well as myself, from positions "elsewhere" in the house.

If they ID themselves as police, ask for ID, and demand to see a warrant. ANYBODY that bursts through my door is dead meat. Period. And we have gas masks, so tear gas is a non-issue.

And I WOULD volunteer, if asked, to participate in a TEMPORARY "community police" patrol. And I would, within reason, render assistance to a neighbor.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), August 25, 1999.

LEO's come into my house all the time and don't even knock.

-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), August 25, 1999.

mind fillin me in on the acronyms used?

OT and LONG = ? LEO = ?

-- Learnin The Ropes (newto@forum.net), August 25, 1999.

OT = Off Topic; LONG = self-explanitory; LEO = Law Enforcement Officer; LEA = Law Enforcement Agency; IMO = In My Opinion; IMHO (add Humble); OTOH = on the other hand.

GI = Get's it; DGI = Doesn't Get it; DWGI = Doesn't WANT to Get it.

'Kay?

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), August 25, 1999.

Nobody gets to my door without me knowing it. I have motion detectors installed outside (really, they're pretty cheap) and a chime rings inside when someone approaches. I don't open the door unless I know them or they have ID (like a meter man) and I do ask to see ID.

If a police officer shows up and wants to talk, I can hear him fine through the door.

If a police officer wants to come it, for any reason, he better have a warrant and show it to me before I'll open the door and let him in.

If one or more armed people (gang members, cops, military) show up looking like they intend to point guns at me or my family they will be shot. The only time I will be a threat to someone else is if they choose to become a threat to me first.

If it's a neighbor wanting to form a community patrol I'd do it as long as the police don't mind us doing it while armed.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), August 25, 1999.

The problem with no knock warrents is that you normally don't know who is busting down your door. And you must react instantly in a worst case scenario. So you must react instantly to the door being busted down because the worst case scenario involves home invasion by street gangs. So you must blast who/what ever come through the door and hope it's not those damn feds playing army again. This is why no knock warrents used to be only for people the authorities suspected would shoot police on sight. I think it should remain that way.

Just about anyone who break in your door now-a-days yells "Police". Some time they even ARE the police.

Oh, and I don't have any guns or cash. Go look for your self.

And the neihborhood would have to get real ugly before I would join an armed patrol. Law enforcement is for professionals. That's not me.

And the twerp described in #3 would be arrested for poaching an endagered species. Seems that the police found, based on a tip of course, a stuffed spotted owl in his garage.

I don't lend guns casually. And besides, I have none.

But I DO teach anyone who asks nice what I know about safe gun handleing. So if #4 can find a weapon, I'll help.

Solution for #8 and #2 are the same, but classified. Some things you just don't telegraph.

It's a pitty that we have live in times where such things are discussed seriously.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), August 25, 1999.

A few thoughts gang....

First of all....NEVER EVER put all your eggs in one basket...

Set up a "diversionary cache". I've had one for years. The food there is old stuff I never intend to eat, the shotgun has the tip of it's firing pin removed and the box of shotgun shells has been reloaded with fresh primers but are charged with dirt instead of powder.

I have registered guns and ('nuff said)....

-- Notmyname Thistime (prudent@notmyaddress.com), August 25, 1999.

Art: Good to see you posting here.

I owe you one for the wake-up in "What keeps a non-geek awake at night ", from the old WRP's.

Please keep posting, I like the way you think.

Godspeed,

-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), August 26, 1999.