Another recent thread was centered on the subject of DGI's saying they would just come TAKE YOUR food if things get bad.

Comments were made on how to deal with this.

Might I suggest the radical idea of.... calling the police? No, I'm not talking about Feb 2000, but right NOW. You see, if someone says they are going to take your possesions with force it's called a 'Terroristic Threat' and it's illegal unless they represent the government.

So, call the police. Tell them you have a closet with a weeks worth of food just like the Fed's say we should have and Mr. XXXX told you he was planning on breaking into your home to take it.

Sure, most police departments will do little more than laugh and write an incident report, but that's exactly what you want. The report is the key. It begins a paper trail that might just get you out of a jam later. Suppose the beginning of 2000 rolls around and Bozo DGI decides to requisition your pantry. IF an altercation should ensue and IF the police become involved you can remind them the guy was doing exactly what he said he would do when you called them 8 months ago.

With any luck, reporting the threat of violence NOW will earn the Bozo a call by the police and they'll be warned you don't take it lightly.

Before you ask, yes we have done exactly this but not over Y2K. The police reacted swiftly and our special little Bozo has never been heard of again.

Seems to me the best course of action is to take every available path to avoid violence, without endangering your families wellfare.

I run a small business. It's the kind of business where people you've never seen before walk in mad at YOU because THEY have a problem. As a result I have the local police radio room on speed dial. Not 911, but the locals who would respond anyway. At the first sign that a 'customer' is getting out of hand, such as cursing or yelling, I hit the speed dial and ask for assistance. It works every time. In every case they have either calmed down at once or left ASAP. Sure, we are armed, but that's not the point. The point is AVOIDING the confrontation.

-- Art Welling (artw@lancnews.infi.net), August 09, 1999

Answers

Hey Art, good to hear from you. If I remember correctly you wrote a good article for Cory in Weather Report # 106. Remember, fear God, not Y2K. Fear God, not man.

-- potent (potent308@hotmail.com), August 09, 1999.

Art, the police will enter a report into their computer and it will be erased off their computer in 2000. So, what's the use?

-- smitty (smitty@sandiego.com), August 09, 1999.

GUN -FOR-HIRE=Y2K. I KNOW OF 1 LOCAL BUSINESS' WHO INTENDS TO HIRE=GUNSLINGERS.WILL BUSINESSES HIRE=PROTECTOR,S???

-- food-thought. (dogs@zianet.com), August 09, 1999.

Any police commander with any brains runs backup tapes at least once a month. The mytho out there suggests that the data will disappear forever after Y2K. I'm a programmer and I can assure you that even if the computer decides to eat the data base, most have backup tapes to go back to. Where I work, we still have backup tapes left over from Jan 1st.

Tim

-- Tim the Y2K nut (tmiley@yakko.cs.wmich.edu), August 09, 1999.

Calling the police can actually be a big risk depending on the police force where you live. In some areas, they are likely to be more interested in why you are stockpiling all this food, supplies, etc. no doubt because they were completely unaware of the govts. position on Y2K. Even if they are aware, you don't want to end up on anyones list of "hoarders" who will end up being punished for their foresight.

AVOIDING the confrontation is certainly the point, so again, the best advice is to let nobody know about your preparations. If someone finds out anyway and makes one of their stupid joking threats, say nothing. Use the information to make sure you are better prepared in case they do come after you. Arm yourself appropriately and make sure everyone in your family who can hold and shoot a gun is trained and prepared when it becomes necessary to kill. It will greatly increase the chances that you and your family will come out of it alive.

-- (its@coming.soon), August 09, 1999.

If someone threatened to come take my food, etc., I would ask him/her which caliber bullet they would prefer? And to avoid any confrontation with anyone, keep your plans to yourself! I wouldn't go to the police because the other person could say they were joking, or deny that they ever said anything. Then not only does the police know that you have food and weapons, you open yourself up to a lot more trouble by drawing attention to yourself.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), August 09, 1999.

Food? What food? I don't have any food.

Repeat after me....

Jolly

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), August 09, 1999.

Call the police????????? LOL!!


OK, lets all say it together, yet one more time:

WHAT GOVERNMENTS CANNOT FIND, THEY CANNOT STEAL.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 09, 1999.

As noted elsewhere:

"These are not the droids you're looking for..."

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 09, 1999.

Yee Haa, AL-d is back. You freaking LIAR. God hates liars AL.

-- Lookie (Lookie@al.com), August 09, 1999.

Interesting responses.

Police computers croaking.... maybe, maybe not. If you think that every computer everywhere is going to go belly up at 010100 perhaps you might want to study the issue a little more. I think 'our' police puters will be working fairly well, and I know the local police have memories that will not go PHHTT on 1-1-2000. Hell, one stopped me while I was getting coffee the other day and asked about something that happened two years ago when someone tried to rip us off.

Afraid to tell the police ya got a 'stash'? Are you honestly afraid to say to an officer that you took the towels out of your hall closet and stocked a weeks worth of food there?

CLASS IS IN SESSION: Hide and go seek 101

If you think that searches will be made of your home for supplies you had better get real and get there fast. The single most effective way to combat someone searching for something is to GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT. Give them what they 'expect' to find. Don't make it too easy. Don't smirk, don't laugh, don't glance around, DON'T rush to your real stash as soon as they leave.

Would you rather they took a closet full of 'donations' that they knew about or tear your house apart looking for what they think MIGHT be there?

Scenario: Searchers arrive at your home (after hitting last house) and knock on door. You answer and friendly local police tells you they have orders to collect surplus food for redistribution. "surplus" is taken to mean anything more than you need for next few days. Officer looks around and says "I remember this place, the stash is in the hall closet". You piss and moan, beg and plead, threaten legal action, yell that they are traitors and thieves. They carry out nearly all your supplies from the closet, takes three men two trips to do it. Two extra men 'babysit' you while they do it. You start to break down... "we're gonna starve...Starve..." They got what they came for, now they are gone. Sound terrible?

Scenario #2: Local police knock at your door. Friendly local officer tells you they have orders to take surplus. He looks at you and says "I haven't seen you at the food distribution center. I guess you haven't run out yet?" Hmm.... They then proceed to take your house apart in a professional manner till they find everything they think is hidden there. If you 'volunteer' a closet stash at that point they'll think it's a throwaway (*I* would) and keep looking.

If a searcher thinks he has inside info he'll use it. If he thinks YOU were not aware that HE knew, he might just let the search go at that.

Got guns you want to hide? Better have some they can find when they search. Got supplies you want to keep? Better have some 'hidden' supplies a searcher can feel good about finding. You see, it's not the supplies/guns/drugs/whatever the searcher is really after, what drives a good searcher is the hunt. It's psychological to them, it's a rush, it's adrenaline. At the end of the day he's not thinking about the truckload of stuff he found, but instead he's thinking about the people he outsmarted by finding their 'stash'.

If you intend to outwit a committed search of your property you better start planning now.

The whole idea of calling the police when someone says they intend you harm is intended as a way of defusing a possible violent confrontation. That's what police can be really good at sometimes. DON'T tell them you are armed. DON'T tell them you have a basement full of supplies. Keep it simple and staight forward.

"Hello officer Fife, The reason I called is I'm kinda worried. I read in the paper where the Government said we should have a weeks worth of food in case that computer thing is bad this Winter. It sorta made sense so I took the towels out of my hall closet and put a weeks worth of food in there just like they said. Well, I was talking to Earnest P. Wormhole about it and he laughed at me. Now that don't bother me none, but then he said he had a gun and if he got hungry he'd just come take our food away whether we liked it or not. I think he meant it! He really scared us! I know he's got a gun and it really worries me when he says he'd use it on us. Maybe he was joking but it sure didn't sound like it at the time. Now he looks at us funny every time he drives past the house."

I'll bet ya dollars to donuts Ol' Earnest will get a visit from Officer Fife and Ol' Earnest will just say he was joking. I'll also bet you officer Fife will remember BOTH Earnest AND your closet full of food. Either way it works in your favor. If you and Earnest get to play rough you are on record as the agrieved party once before. If Officer Fife gets told to take 'donations' of 'surplus supplies' he'll remember your closet and maybe not search too much harder than that.

Anyway, if this doesn't make sense to you then just forget it. There's no reason in the world why a reader should pay any attention to this drival....

Have a wonderful New Year. I really mean it. Good luck.

-- Art Welling (artw@lancnews.infi.net), August 09, 1999.

Are you honestly afraid to say to an officer that you took the towels out of your hall closet and stocked a weeks worth of food there?

If you're not, you should be.

If you think that searches will be made of your home for supplies you had better get real and get there fast. The single most effective way to combat someone searching for something is to GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT. Give them what they 'expect' to find. Don't make it too easy. Don't smirk, don't laugh, don't glance around, DON'T rush to your real stash as soon as they leave.

Nice idea, but it won't make a difference. If you knew anything about searches, you'd know that they're not nice clean and neat. They can turn an entire house inside out in a matter of minutes, and they'll tear it apart in the process. If they're there at all, they will knock on every wall, open every door, pound on every floor, and if they are even the least bit suspicious, out come the sledgehammers.

If you think they're fooled by decoy "stashes" you've left around, then you probably have some pretty stupid cops in your area. Perhaps "Officer Fife" is an appropriate moniker for them after all.

If you intend to outwit a committed search of your property you better start planning now.

There's nothing to "outwit." If one smashes a place to pieces, one can pretty much find anything hidden there.

The whole idea of calling the police when someone says they intend you harm is intended as a way of defusing a possible violent confrontation. That's what police can be really good at sometimes.

They can also be good at starting them.

"Hello officer Fife, The reason I called is I'm kinda worried. I read in the paper where the Government said we should have a weeks worth of food in case that computer thing is bad this Winter. It sorta made sense so I took the towels out of my hall closet and put a weeks worth of food in there just like they said. Well, I was talking to Earnest P. Wormhole about it and he laughed at me. Now that don't bother me none, but then he said he had a gun and if he got hungry he'd just come take our food away whether we liked it or not. I think he meant it! He really scared us! I know he's got a gun and it really worries me when he says he'd use it on us. Maybe he was joking but it sure didn't sound like it at the time. Now he looks at us funny every time he drives past the house."

I'll bet ya dollars to donuts Ol' Earnest will get a visit from Officer Fife and Ol' Earnest will just say he was joking.

I'll bet ya dollars to donuts Ol' Officer Fife and Ol' Ernest will be driving past the house from now on. And maybe some other visitors also.

I'll also bet you officer Fife will remember BOTH Earnest AND your closet full of food.

That depends on what happens. If they're looking for food stashes post-Y2K, you can rest assured that he won't give a crap about poor Ol' Earnest.

Either way it works in your favor.

Having anyone know more about you than they should never works in your favor. The best course of action is to never tell Earnest about your stash in the first place.

There's no reason in the world why a reader should pay any attention to this drival....

Hey, you said it, not me.

-- (its@coming.soon), August 09, 1999.

The job of any law enforcement agency is to protect what they perceive as the greater good. Hoarders are viewed dimly, during times of national emergency. It's not paranoid to believe that during a Y2K national emergency, all levels of law enforcement will see it as the greater good to confiscate all food stores, whether in grocery stores or in private homes, and ration that food out.
Each individual has to wrestle with his or her own conscience about the hoarding issue, but I think it's safe, sane and rational to say that if TSHTF, all known food stores will be confiscated. That's not because the police are mean evil people; they just have a job to do and that job may be very contrary to what you see as your job - to keep you and yours alive. To make a long statement short, I know several policemen and women who I think are very nice people - I'm still not telling them about my stores.

-- Bokonon (bokonon@my-deja.com), August 09, 1999.

Folks around you will eventually notice you are not suffering like they may be and begin to put two and two together. One way to limit the consequences is to share with your closest neighbors and tell them that if they talk too much and things get out of hand, they will be losers as well. Sort of a 'survival club'. Things get bad enough and, unless you have tactical nukes, your stash is history anyway. Resign yourself to the fact that no plan is foolproof. At best you are fighting a rear-guard action against catastrophe.

-- Jeremiah Jetson (laterthan@uthink.y2k), August 09, 1999.

so honestly people--what is the point? you tell me. we can't win either way if the government is truly going to do what you think. i honestly find it hard to believe they are going to have time to do it with many major events happening--plus why would they do the nickel and dime household searches first when it is possible to get entire warehouse fulls from the food manufacturers? What would you rather have--crates full of beef stew or miscellaneous food that you have to sort through, organize, possibly prepare--by grinding?? however, just in case--let me ask you--what do you think of discreetly using a professional storage enterprise for part of your supplies? i mean one with a big tall fence.

-- t (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), August 09, 1999.

Art, I have NO intention of alerting the police in my city.

I agree with bardou.

I stay out of trouble and let them break the laws as they choose.

The police are NOT my friends. I do NOT trust them.

The police are worse than the bozos because they openly carry their guns and will get whatever they want, and the local court system will always support them.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), August 09, 1999.

Folks around you will eventually notice you are not suffering like they may be and begin to put two and two together.

Only if they see you. Rule #1, Don't Talk To The Neighbors. The less they know, the better. If they don't see you, maybe they'll think you're dead and stay away. This is also a very good argument for relocating far away from larger populations. Even suburbs can be dangerous.

One way to limit the consequences is to share with your closest neighbors and tell them that if they talk too much and things get out of hand, they will be losers as well. Sort of a 'survival club'.

But then you're back to somebody noticing that your neighbors aren't suffering and suspicions get aroused. Not to mention the neighbors fighting over YOUR food and supplies and the unpredictable ones who figure that it might just be easier if you and your family were out of the picture altogether. The more people who know, the more danger you put yourself and your family in. There's no perfect answer, of course, but the best you can achieve is to Stay Low and Keep Quiet!!

-- (its@coming.soon), August 09, 1999.

Read Sorokin, move to the boonies, bury most of your food (and other survival stuff), bury lots OFF your property, zip the lip, don't let anyone on your property, don't travel after rollover, don't barter food.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com (newly updated, with graphics)

-- MinnesotasMITH (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), August 09, 1999.

Read Sorokin, move to the boonies, bury most of your food (and other survival stuff), bury lots OFF your property, zip the lip, don't let anyone on your property, don't travel after rollover, don't barter food, don't give away food.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com (newly updated, with graphics)

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), August 09, 1999.

Art,

It's real simple. If they show up at my door and demand food under threat of force they will be shot. Uniform or no. Do you think the average cop is really going to go head long into a well armed group of people who are just scared and trying to protect and feed their families? Not likely. In Waco, they called in the friggin tanks.

Unless the real military gets involved (and I don't believe there are enough of them to do this on any widespread basis) then I don't see the 'local' authorities as posing much of a threat. They're going to have their hands full keeping the streets clear, stopping the burning and looting of supermarkets/banks/gas stations.

I'm not hiding my preps from anyone. If you think you're going to be able to hide out if TSHTF you're kidding yourself. The first whiff of food cooking will send some very hungry people your way. Whenever someone says to me "I'll just come to you place" I respond with an absolutely straight face "That's why I have lots of guns and lots of ammo and I practice regularly. Don't count on me for your continued existence."

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), August 09, 1999.

I agree with Jerimiah. There's a lot of major fantasizing going on with all the people who think they're going to make it for very long with their "Me and my gun will take on the world". This isn't nuclear armageddeon we're talking about, with massive decimation of the population. There's going to be just oodles of cold, hungry, scared people roaming around and you won't be able to reload fast enough to get 'em all. If we're going to survive, we'll have to work together.
On the other hand, however, I think it's a mistake to start talking too early. I don't want to end up being anyone's "contingency" plan. It might even be a good idea to wait till the disaster actually happens. It takes a while for civility to break down and in the immediate aftermath of a disaster, people are usually pretty eager to listen to just about anyone who has half a plan.
Of course a lot probably has to do with where you live. If you live in an area where civility has already gone to hell, maybe now's the time to plan that winter vacation with relatives in the country.

-- Bokonon (bokonon@my-deja.com), August 10, 1999.

I agree with Jerimiah. There's a lot of major fantasizing going on with all the people who think they're going to make it for very long with their "Me and my gun will take on the world".

Not "the world," just the people who show up, uninvited at my door.

This isn't nuclear armageddeon we're talking about,

No, it's much much worse.

with massive decimation of the population.

Actually, the violence that ensues after the Pollys realize that they are about to starve may indeed contribute to the massive decimation of the population all by itself. Just don't be in the middle when it happens.

There's going to be just oodles of cold, hungry, scared people roaming around and you won't be able to reload fast enough to get 'em all.

It's not like we're going out of our way to shoot people, that's far more dangerous than staying in a presumably well fortified and defended home. We only have to concern ourselves with those who show up at our door.

If we're going to survive, we'll have to work together.

A nice idea, but sadly, that will not be the case.

-- (its@coming.soon), August 10, 1999.

It won't matter whether I have told anyone, the smoke from my wood stove will give me away.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), August 10, 1999.

It's, Worse than nuclear armageddeon? If you believe that, I gotta ask what kinda strange homebrew you been smokin', boy? I'm somebody who thinks Y2K will be bad, real bad, but I haven't seen a thing to support the notion that (GTW)global thermonuclear war has lost it's spot as top dog of man-made disasters.
There's no way it could be. The first millisecond of a nuclear detonation produces a situation that is the absolute worst Y2K could be, and then some. When a nuke goes off, it produces a strong EMF (electro-magnetic force) pulse that fries the telecommunications systems, fries the innards of computers and probably would even fry your toaster.
Y2K means that the computers, for the most part are just inoperative (there's at least some chance of them being repaired; GTW means they're destroyed, gone, history. You can't repair them, because there's nothing left to repair.
Then there's the, shall we say, quibbling little problems of x-rays, firestorm, blast damage and long-lasting fallout.
Sorry, but you lost some major credibility, on that one.

I also gotta wonder if you have some notion that everybody's gonna just stroke out, at the first taste of bad water? There's going to be a lot of scared, cold, hungry people around, for quite some time, if the worst happens. That population decimation will take place very gradually, in the world you envision. If they're that bad off, they'll be a very serious threat to you, no matter how well armed and fortified you think you are.
As for the rest of it, well, that's just a difference of philosophy. I don't share your dim view of the human race.

Read Robert Waldrop's latest post, for an example of how people can rise above it all, during a crisis. In Sarejavo, during the Bosnian Crisis, the infrastructure was destroyed and aid was cut off. People got it together, and survived.
Sure, people can be stupid sometimes, maybe even most of the time, but there's plenty of examples of grace under fire, too.

-- Bokonon (bokonon@my-deja.com), August 10, 1999.

Who wants to live forever?

-- (LiveFreeOrDie@New.Hampshire.US), August 10, 1999.

Bokonon,

There's no way any of us will make you understand the true devastation this crisis will bring, so it's probably pointless to explain it to you. It's pretty much the same way with the Pollys. It's great that you have such a positive view of the human race as a whole, and I really do hope that your view turns out to be true. However, I just don't see it happening what with everything I've seen so far and read right here on this forum. The sad part about having such a positive outlook as you do, is that it will more than likely get you and your family killed. If you have any children, you would be wise to rethink your position for their sake.

-- (its@coming.soon), August 10, 1999.