Does anyone here have proof there are bonafide establishment shills operating on our board? Or is this just a neat conspiracy theory? It may simply be that the pollies are growing more obnoxious.

-- CD (CDOKeefe@aol.com), August 08, 1999

Answers

What does the word shill mean?

-- Linda A. (adahi@muhlon.com), August 08, 1999.

The following articles outline the efforts of government and corporations to control y2k SPIN.

PR experts preparing Y2K spin-doctoring

Feds Plan y2k Spin control

I believe it is safe to say these efforts include the Internet.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 08, 1999.

Govt Unit to Control Flow of US News

Someone will post more links soon, CD. I like the one where Koskinen admits they have hired a PR company to put positive spin on y2k reports.

-- a (a@a.a), August 08, 1999.

Proof: None. Follow up question: What else would motivate one to spend most of his waking hours working feverishly on a subject he deems absolutely frivolous?

-- Puddintame (achillesg@hotmail.com), August 08, 1999.

Someone will post more links soon, CD. I like the one where Koskinen admits they have hired a PR company to put positive spin on y2k reports.

Me, too, a. It shows you just how far media has come that an admission of this sort is treated as run-of-the-mill. However, in these articles they're talking about official PR efforts, not disinformation through boards like this one. I'm asking does anyone know of anyone who will swear that they are being paid to post messages like the one we saw from Y2K-OK the other day?

What else would motivate one to spend most of his waking hours working feverishly on a subject he deems absolutely frivolous?

The same motivation that drives some kids to bully others on the playground? So they can pick at the scab on the collective unconscious and feel surperior? So they can pretend they're not as scared as they really are? I can think of several reasons why someone would do what you or I would deem an utterly stupid pursuit, Tame.

I'm not attempting to put down the possibility that there are gov-shills on this board. As an anology, I was just a little kid during the 60s, but there's been too much proof to come out over the decades to convince many of us there was heavy duty infiltration of students groups during the Free Love Era. In the case of Y2K, though, I haven't yet seen the proof.

-- CD (CDOKeefe@aol.com), August 08, 1999.

shhhhhhhhh! Keep very quiet. Yes, us trolls are growing more obnoxious. Not malicious (at least in my case, just obnoxious). But admit it, you like us. We are kind of like crazy old uncle Jim. You wouldn't bring him out in public, but life wouldn't be the same without him.

-- Butt Nugget (nubuttet@better.mousetrap), August 08, 1999.

CD commented:

"However, in these articles they're talking about official PR efforts, not disinformation through boards like this one. I'm asking does anyone know of anyone who will swear that they are being paid to post messages like the one we saw from Y2K-OK the other day?"

CD, do you believe that these SLIPPERY PR folks would reveal their specific plans for SPIN?? Do you believe that their "Official PR Efforts" would not include disinformation over the internet??? I doubt there are many LIMITS to their efforts.

I have asked point blank a few folks who participate on this forum if they are being paid for their efforts ....... they all skirted the question.

I thought Puddintame nailed it!!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 08, 1999.

No PROOF per se but it's fairly self-evident that they are operating on this forum as well as many others.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 08, 1999.

while I have no knowledge of internal shills I must report that Hawaii's preparations are in full swing to greet newyear visitors who are planning on eating hotel fare through the crisis on Jan 1st---hotel stocks could last for a week---after that tourists will be forced to emulate the Island kings of old as written in an old ditty,Inky Dinky parlez vou baby pudding and little boy stew,He ate them all without any remorse,The King of the cannibal Islands--Fast Eddie

-- merek mura (merek@aloha.net), August 08, 1999.

The short answer is, "No." Despite the squawks from the conspiracy buffs, there isn't an iota of evidence anyone on this forum is a paid government operative. And, Ray, I have been asked on more than one occasion if I am being paid to post here. I have answered those inquiries, and even invited people to stop by "in real life." No takers, thus far.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), August 09, 1999.

Of all the active financial and economic threads on this forum, wherein Mr. Decker could knowledgeably offer some professional insight, he chooses instead to post (again) a disclaimer to this one.

-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), August 09, 1999.

How about the new kia ad stating that the media is responsible for people's fears over y2k.The ads were lighthearted when they began,now they're much more marginalizing.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 09, 1999.

Good point Elbow, a very TELLING point n'est-ce pas?

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 09, 1999.

Decker commented:

Despite the squawks from the conspiracy buffs, there isn't an iota of evidence anyone on this forum is a paid government operative. And, Ray, I have been asked on more than one occasion if I am being paid to post here."

Decker, there isn't an iota of evidence that some folks aren't being paid to participate here.

Now Decker, the SIMPLE question is, are you receiving any form of remuneration from any entity for participating on any internet forum???

Jusyt a YES or NO please !!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 09, 1999.

Italics Off

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 09, 1999.

The thing about spooks is that they look just like real people.

-- spooky (no-one@nowhere.now), August 09, 1999.

thought I'd bump this up to the top in hopes of getting a YES or NO answer!!

================================================== Decker commented:

"Despite the squawks from the conspiracy buffs, there isn't an iota of evidence anyone on this forum is a paid government operative. And, Ray, I have been asked on more than one occasion if I am being paid to post here."

Decker, there isn't an iota of evidence that some folks aren't being paid to participate here.

Now Decker, the SIMPLE question is, are you receiving any form of remuneration from any entity for participating on any internet forum???

Just a YES or NO please !!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 09, 1999.

Ray,

No. I am not receiving any renumeration from any entity, public or private, for my writings on the Internet. I have never received enumeration for any of my Y2K-related writing, on or off the Internet. Now, Ray, can you move on? Or would you like me to FedEx you a sworn affidavit?

Mr. Grease,

Many of the so-called economic/financial threads are a waste of bandwidth. How many posts on buying gold do we really need?

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), August 09, 1999.

Decker, thank you, we shall now move forward.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 09, 1999.

Isn't there an old adage that says something similar to:

Never believe a rumor until it has been officially denied twice.

-- (cujo@baddog.byte), August 09, 1999.

Diane, which thread did you post that description of a Credit Union Seminar given by the PR firm behind the Community Conversation meetings? Maybe last week in July? It was startling stuff.

-- Lewis (aslanshow@yahoo.com), August 09, 1999.

No, there is no proof whatsoever. What constitutes "proof" in this milieu anyway? Even a straight-forward first-person admission signed by someone suspected of shilling would itself be suspect. What shill would *ever* under *any* circumstances admit the practice? By the same token, what shill would have any qualms about lying repeatedly about the subject?

Mr. Decker,

I could have written your response myself. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge, you've seldom if ever posted to a gold thread, while posting only slightly more frequently to financial threads. One begins to wonder. And, no, I'm not asking for "proof" or links either.

On the other hand, you chose not to address your compulsion for offering a gratuitous, unsolicited denial....

Mr. Elbow Grease

-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), August 09, 1999.

Lewis... pretty sure it was on this thread...

OT?: William S. Cohen, Secretary of Defense: Preparing For A Grave New World (USIA)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0018ov

As to the question... Does Anyone Have Proof There Are Actual Establishment Shills?

Proof? No. Dont have access to peoples paycheck stubs.

Suspicions? You bet!!!

And some of us can see a whole lot more than Ken Decker can.

Later.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), August 09, 1999.

I might suggest that if any of you have access to Nexus Lexus, enter a search on 'Y2k' and 'O'Dwyer's'. That should kick out articles that have appeared in their trade magazines about PR firms and clients on this issue.

Most PR firms are very good at remaining 'behind the scenes' but even the big boys do screw up from time to time. The PR plan from Clorox that was leaked and published a few years ago in "Toxic Sludge Is Good For You" is a real eye opener.

Short of such a leak as this, we are unlikely to know 'as fact' whether this specific forum has been targetted. If it has, then that should come as a surprise to no one. But hey, that's life. Sometimes ya gotta make decisions based of the 'facts' and other times you have to go on only clues and track records.

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), August 09, 1999.

Attn. SysOps. How about checking the records for these IP's?
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0019Cm

-- (just@linking.links), August 09, 1999.

Read double-deckers last post VERY carefully...

quote...

"No. I am not receiving any renumeration from any entity, public or private, for my writings on the Internet. I have never received enumeration for any of my Y2K-related writing, on or off the Internet."

The first sentence - present tense - not receiving any remuneration... i.e. he's already been paid up front and in full!

The second sentence - NOT a typo, TYPICAL ddecker, he's never received "enumeration"...

ha ha ha - he's playing games with us, having a good old laugh!

enumeration \E*nu`mer*a"tion\, n. [L. enumeratio: cf. F. ['e]num ['e]ration.] 1. The act of enumerating, making separate mention, or recounting.

2. A detailed account, in which each thing is specially noticed.

Because almost every man we meet possesses these, we leave them out of our enumeration. --Paley.

3. (Rhet.) A recapitulation, in the peroration, of the heads of an argument.

Regards [laughing]

Mr. Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 09, 1999.

Hey Arnie: LOL Toxic Sludge is good for you.

Check out

Plutonium totally safe ! Don't worry, be happy

-- a (a@a.a), August 09, 1999.

I don't care how much you wine Ray........I'm not going to show you our secret handshake............

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), August 09, 1999.

See above, but replace wine with whine.........clumsy fingers today.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), August 09, 1999.

Mr. Elbow Grease, I have started several economics threads including my comments on Alan Greenspan's latest Senate testimony. I have posted my thoughts on the "gold bugs," aka proponents of a new gold standard. I have also made my specific economic predictions for next year. In short, I am interested in the economics of Y2K... far more than in "preparations." You'll notice, I have yet to visit the preparations web site. By the way, my comments to Ray were not a denial, they were a correction. To his credit, Ray accepted this and moved on... a model of behavior you may want to consider.

Diane, I thought you were on vacation. Insofar as your sight, Diane, the future will confirm whose vision is more accurate. Just stay in touch after the rollover... we'll compare notes. And I respectfully suggest you find basis for your suspicions... other than the fact people disagree with you.

Andy, my, my, my. Next, you'll be diagramming my sentences. So you can sleep at night, I have never received any money (or any other considerations) for my Internet writings. Hmmm... future tense? I do not anticipate receiving any money for my Internet writings. This is volunteer work, Andy. In your case, think of it as helping the logically challenged.

You're right about one thing, Andy. You are a wonderful source of amusement.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), August 09, 1999.

Thanks, Diane for digging up that thread. BTW, I wish I had copied it back when it broke. The link is now dead. (Guess somebody pays attention...)

From http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0018ov

1999 CUES Seminar Series: Y2K Crisis Management

http:// www.cues.org/99sem_series-y2kcriman.htm

[snip] ...Seminar leader John W. Rendon, Jr., is co-founder and president of The Rendon Group, a global strategic communications consultancy. His client list includes governments throughout the world and numerous members of the U.S. Congress. ...

[snip]

"...In addition, Rendon is a member of the Highland Group, a Department of Defense sub-group working on the public communication aspect of Y2K.

Develop a comprehensive Y2K communications strategy and help keep the hype under control-attend CUES' seminar, Y2K Crisis Management..."

[snip--to end]

-- Lewis (aslanshow@yahoo.com), August 09, 1999.

I don't know of anyone "high up" who posts here, but they definitely lurk. We've had some proof of that in the past.

-- Gayla (privacy@please.com), August 09, 1999.

http://www.cues.org/99sem_series-y2kcriman.htm

1999 CUES Seminar Series:
Y2K Crisis Management

July 22-23, 1999
Boston Back Bay Hilton
Boston, Mass.

Who should attend:

CEOs
Marketing Executives
PR Directors
Board Members
Y2K Team Members

Perception is Reality

You've addressed the technical aspects of Y2K and are well into the testing phase. Now the real work begins.

It's virtually impossible to pick up a publication or turn on a news show and not hear proclamations of impending Armageddon-like doom resulting from the Y2K issue. The media is hyping it. Lawyers are hyping it. And worst of all, Hollywood is hyping it.

How can you, the credit union CEO, marketing executive or PR director, combat these reports? No matter how diligently you've been keeping your members informed of your Y2K progress, no matter how often you tell them their money will be safe on January 1, 2000, it will be very difficult for them to ignore the sensationalism surrounding Y2K, and not to tuck away a few hundred dollars "just in case."

Y2K presents a potential crisis situation for your credit union. And just as for any crisis, a comprehensive, in-place crisis communications plan is essential for communicating with members, the media and staff. Prepare your credit union for the Y2K worst - attend the Credit Union Executives Society's seminar, Y2K Crisis Management.

Led by crisis management and strategic communications expert John W. Rendon, Jr., this day-and-a-half-long seminar will attack the Y2K issue strictly from the public relations perspective. Learn to:

Define a "crisis" for your organization
Create an internal crisis response team
Deal with the media, vendors, members and the general public in crisis situations
Design a Y2K crisis communications plan
Determine your key audiences
Manage your information and its delivery
Define and use direct and indirect message instruments
Use media to reach your key publics
Monitor external information
Plus much more!

Seminar leader John W. Rendon, Jr., is co-founder and president of The Rendon Group, a global strategic communications consultancy. His client list includes governments throughout the world and numerous members of the U.S. Congress. He has developed communications plans for political and public policy campaigns in the Caribbean, Europe, Africa, the Middle East and the Americas. Rendon has served as analyst for CBS News and has appeared on the BBC and CNN's Crossfire. In addition, Rendon is a member of the Highland Group, a Department of Defense sub-group working on the public communication aspect of Y2K.

Develop a comprehensive Y2K communications strategy and help keep the hype under control-attend CUES' seminar, Y2K Crisis Management. Register today! The investment is $495 for CUES members; $565 for CUES Directors Educational Forum members; and $710 for nonmembers.

) 1999 Credit Union Executives Society

-- (copy@keepers.anon), August 09, 1999.

Now, now, Mr. Decker, don't be so testy. I *said* I was not looking for proof. I am aware that you've started several threads; I was not deliberately ignoring that. You seem more comfortable when you are framing the discussion. However, there are numerous occasions where you could have contributed valuable points on threads started by others, but did not. This has puzzled me more than once when someone has made a blatant economic faux pas. (Regrets, no examples come to mind at the moment.) And, yes, I do seem to recall a comment or two regarding a new gold standard. So, technically, I stand corrected. However, it still appears that your participation on financial threads is minimal overall.

As to the denial/correction thing: Ray had not mentioned you directly; you "offered" a response not called for. Sounds like denial to me.

Mr. Elbow Grease

-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), August 09, 1999.

Actually, Grease, Decker seems far less in denial than he was when he was first dispatched to this forum. Seems he just can't admit that Y2K is anything worth preparing for (and this is probably because he's natively more prepared than even 10% of the populace could ever hope to be with the time remaining)(as is the case with Maria).

In case you missed it, this is 'a's study of Decker, his past and prognosticated future. A gut-buster.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), August 09, 1999.

What a waste! What difference does it make? This represents just another example of how doomers must speculate. Oh I forgot Diane, it's not speculation, it's doing good "intelligence" work. Thanks Butt Nugget for the laugh.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), August 09, 1999.

Mr. Elbow Grease, there are not enough hours in the day to correct all of the bad economic thinking on this forum. I just cruised by a post criticizing "free trade nonsense." Egads! Do you think I have the time or patience to explain Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage? My primary interest is microeconomics. There is very little discussion of "micro" on this forum, although I did take time to explain marginal utility to "King of Spain." (And he didn't even thank me!)

I rarely feel the urge to take someone to the economics woodshed... but I make exceptions for folks like Andy. I can tolerate wrong- headed thinking, but for militant wrong-headed thinking, I sometime make an exception.

Ah, Lisa, an economy of words exceeded only by an economy of thought. My own "preparation" recommendations have been constant for months. With all the good news, I suppose I should ease up, but my advice is not dependent on Y2K. (By the way, who "dispatched" me to this forum?)

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), August 09, 1999.

I was going to venture that it was Hoff? Hey, good question. How/when/where did you get turned on to Y2K?

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), August 09, 1999.

So then Mr. Decker, you're saying you're just another average Joe who happens to specialize in microeconomics, and has no interests in seriously enlightening the rest of us by seriously presenting your views and opinions on your own threads? If so then I know to simply skip all of your posts. I'm interested in learning, not reading egotistic flame wars.

-- Chris (%$^&^@pond.com), August 09, 1999.

Oh goody!! A witch hunt!!! The end of the millenium just wouldn't be the same without one!
Of course *our* board is just the most inmportant place in the world, so of course we're just absolutely swarming with feds!
You know who my favorite candidates for goverment shills are? The really extreme ones who float "white bus" stories, to make the rest of us who take this whole thing seriously seem like a buncha crackpots.
Heh, heh, heh.....

-- Bokonon (bokonon@my-deja.com), August 09, 1999.

Brian

I am actually for once going to back Mr Decker up

He is more interested in microeconomics and has writen several good pieces on the subject that would benefit anyone. I have approached Ken with a bunch of FRB documents and has little interest. Nor do I (IMHO) think he is paid in anyway. A matter of fact I consider him a "regular poster" (now) albeit a better writer than most. His material lately has been more on topic than some others on the forum.

What I do think doesn't apply to this thread.

If there are "Shills" (what a word *gag*) they would still have to go through the grind in regards to their opinions as anyone else.

Actually there is little point in attacking the forum now. Both Sen. Bennett and John Koskinen have said to prepare for 2 weeks, also the State Dept. has implied the same thing. If folks can prepare for 2 weeks they can prepare for 2 months with just a little more effort.

The cat is out of the bag as it were. It is the Press and TV influence that will be critical in the outcome. Christmas is getting closer, the biggest revenue generator during the year on all sides of the economic reality. Will they rock the boat?

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 09, 1999.

Looks like I am talking to myself :o)

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 09, 1999.

Brian,

Hey, I'm listening...

Can you direct us to the posts/articles in which "both Sen. Bennett and John Koskinen have said to prepare for 2 weeks"? How could I have missed *that*?

-- mabel (mabel_louise@yahoo.com), August 09, 1999.