Mobility vs. Staying put

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I hear a lot of hard-core GIs bragging about the huge stash of gold, guns, and grub, and how they've managed to find a place that is "secure" and "secluded."

Maybe that's not such a bad idea, but just suppose your bunker isn't all that hidden or inconspicuous. Maybe it is, but not hidden enough. In extremely hard times (say, a 9 or 10), don't you think that motivated people are going to find you no matter what?

For the vast majority of us who lack the financial means to relocate to personal survival property or build a bunker, isn't it more wise to plan for a sudden "bug-out" instead of(?) staying put and holding down the fort? In this strategy, the emphasis is placed on survival through good communication equipment, extra gas in the car, good maps of the backroads, several (not one) supply caches in different locations, and networking with friends and family in different parts of the country (who may be less affected by y2k than you). The idea is not to be leaden with more supplies than what you can quickly pack in your car/vehicle. The idea is that a flexible, adaptible, mobile mind-set wins out over one that says you have to stay put and defend the fort at all costs.

What do you think? I'm not saying this to be critical of anyone, I am just curious about how survivalism can mean diffent things to different people.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), August 01, 1999

Answers

I do not see any advantages to moving about.

Lets say you load up the car with all you best stuff. You get on the highway. You see a barricade ahead. Maybe a chain across the road. You stop. Before you can turn around 3 or 4 guys with shotguns blast away. They take your stuff, they push the car off the road, reload, and get the next car. Not good.

Better to find some simple house. Buy extra food for the neighbors. Help each other defend the immediate area. If some one comes around to cause trouble, deal with that.

While the situation is dicey, I can think of no good reason why you would want to be moving about.

This one will be a defensive war (like WWI), not a mobile one (forget WWII).

Get out the the major metropolotian areas, but many small cities and towns will be safe as long as you work to help keep it safe.

-- stay put (figure_it_out@y2k_hits.com), August 01, 1999.


Finally some of you are waking up aznd starting to get it!!!!!!!!

-- Butt Nugget (nugbuttet@better.mousetrap), August 01, 1999.

I have no idea how anyone in a big city would not get out while theres still time, if they are a GI. I'v been in the woods for many years but never thought it was going to be so important as it is now. I offered to share this place but the few who replied never followed up and thought a meet to see this place was some kind of setup or something. Oh well we are about as ready as we can be now. good luck to all that have prepared. There's only a small precentage that will make it till spring.

-- Lostinthewoods (Wondering@boutit.now), August 01, 1999.

coprolith:

I don't have any faith in the abilities of our local police and deputy sheriffs to maintain safety on the public roads. When a severe crisis develops, they will monitor traveling vehicles.

Several years ago while driving with my girlfriend, we came upon a sobriety check point in the country. Although we were both sober, I suggested turning around and driving to an alternate route because I didn't want to experience any long delay.

She warned me not to do so because the officers would immediately view said action with suspicion and chase after us. I've never forgotten that event.

I think there will be many more roadblocks and search sites set up where ever calamities with looting erupt.

And what will they demand to search first?

Your bug out bags!

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), August 01, 1999.


Coprolith,

This is my strategy too. And, I don't see roadblocks being a problem, I'm more fearful of traffic.

Can you say, "refugee flight"?

There are a million ways to get out of the LA area and no way that TPTB would be able to monitor all of them, including the ocean.

Mobility and adaptability are what I'm planning. Having a years supply of food in the city of LA will do no good if I can't haul it out of here and feeding my neighbors is, unfortunately, impossible.

I'm not interested in a firefight while hunkered down with my family inside where one torch can kill us all. It makes no sense and I don't own anything as important to me than my family.

Especially a piece of land that will be here long after we're all gone from this earth.

Mike

=============================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mt4design@aol.com), August 01, 1999.



Oil supply lines? Refineries? Power outages? Mobile???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ooops, Traffic lights?

-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), August 01, 1999.

I've stockpiled my place. It's off the beaten path, but with nieghbors close enough. If it comes down to bugging out of there or shooting it out, I'd vote for shooting. My family can't live off the land and a duffle bag. We'd be toast soon enough.

I vote for defense, because we have no viable option.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), August 01, 1999.


coprolith, (btw, what does coprolith mean? sounds a lot like coprolite)

I agree that being mobile may have drawbacks, especially if you plan to be driving around in a car. If you really are concerned about a meltdown, better to be on foot.

I'll stay put, myself.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), August 01, 1999.


I'm staying put- am in a rural area, neighbors are pretty cool in general. Can't imagine hiking around in the woods in winter here with 6 ft of snow and 30 below zero- can't imagine the hordes getting here at that time either- and winter lasts a LONGGGGG time up here- not a place you'd willingly head for at that time of year.....and if anyone shows up- well- we can always use farm help....

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), August 01, 1999.

A coprolith for the greek and latin impaired is: a petrified piece of fecal matter.

like dinosaur do do.

-- (nobody@nowhere.com), August 01, 1999.



Coproliths stay crunchy, even in sand.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), August 01, 1999.

I've voted to stay put. Got a decent location, supplies, etc. You will not be able to get far if TSHTF. Everybody and their dog will be trying to run someplace. Highway gridlock will occur. When fuel runs out then what? Cars abandoned, people on foot. Lets face it here folks, most people are not in the physical shape to carry much for any distance. It's not the current lifestyle to lug a 60lb pack around!

This idea of hoards taking over is over done for the most part. The only "hoards" that will develop might, I say might, come out of a large metropolitian area. How far do you really think these folks will get? Gridlock alone will stop most of them. If you really want to get out of your location then do it well before the clock stikes midnight. It does not take much to set up a choke point on a highway. Remember, you are dealing with ordinary people who will be scared, who will look to someone to tell them what to do. You are not dealing with an armored scout platoon that can bypass or overcome the choke point.

We, as in the citizens of the US, have never been exposed to a military or quasi-military situation on our own soil. I have been in countries where this kind of control is the order of the day. It is intimidating to say the least. You can get killed for just looking suspicious. Shouting about your rights at the roadblock will do you no good and may get you killed or arrested at the very least. If you wan to take your chances on the road then do it early in the game not when the lights may be out.

Sometimes it is assumed that our leaders would do nothing contrary to the rule of law or the Constitution. I consider this magical thinking. If, and that's a big if, it does go beyond a BITR then I predict all bets are off as to how our leaders both local and national will choose to respond. Saying that it's against the law won't cut it when you are arrested for failing to stop at a roadblock. Don't kid yourself that it couldn't happen. It can.

-- Freelancer (mercenary2000@yahoo.com), August 01, 1999.


I'd also like to weigh in with a plea: You need a survival property that is rural -- far away from a major city -- secluded in its location, well stocked, with neighbors at least moderately self sufficient regardless of Y2K. You need to be able to defend your property, and be willing to join with your neighbors to defend theirs.

You also need to be there well ahead of time. You can't just expect to waltz in on December 31 and suddenly be part of a community that may already be very suspicious of outsiders.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), August 01, 1999.

I keep hearing that defending a fixed position is impossible. I've asked about this in other threads and never got an answer. Are the goals of a Y2K raid really the same as a traditional attack on a fixed position? I have no military experience but in a traditional attack it appears the goal is to kill the enemy and take the ground they are holding. In a Y2K scenario, the goal is going to be to get the supplies. If you burn down a house you burn up the very same supplies you were trying to get at in the first place.

Unless you're going up against a real military unit (ie, well armed, trained and well supplied) it seems to me that you'd have a pretty good chance of defending your home (assuming you are well armed). Most likely you'll be facing a bunch of cold, hungry and untrained guys trying to steal your stuff. Y2K hits in the middle of winter and they're not going to be ABLE to hang around and wait you out like a real military unit would.

Any thoughts on this from some folks with military experience?

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), August 01, 1999.


The problems with trying to move after the trouble begins are included in an excellent on line book by Fred Heiser that can be downloaded free from http://www.smartlink.net/~fred/tfa/ It reads well and is interesting. The bottom line is that if you must move, do it before the trouble begins.

-- Moe (Moe@3stooges.gom), August 01, 1999.


You don't stay IN your house, dummies! Of course they'd have a rocket grenade in through your windows in 5 minutes.

You set up firing positions out on your perimeter, behind hills, in woods. YOU know your land, they need to get acquainted before they get killed.

If they think there's 10 of you, they may back off. Get out and play in your property... gotta go

-- why (do@I.bother?), August 01, 1999.


This is a topic that may have to be dug up from the Y2K grave. Many moons ago a very conserned person by the name of Tom Benjamin (still a "regular" at CSY2K) authored one of the most contriverial articles in regards to prepping for next year. The battles that continued after lasted for months. His bottom line was that there wasn't enough time for folks to get out of the cities and bug out.

His idea was that folks had better learn to live in the cities regardless of what happens during Y2K. The consept was based around being a squirrel and gathering your preps in quantity and hiding out in your apartment.

At the time I thought he was crazy and there was lots of time to do what ever folks wanted. Actually told him that :o)

Now this might be differant. I am of the opinion that the time for a change of lifestyle would be impossible in the time remaining if the folks haven't arranged it by now.

One of these days I would like to bring this to the top for a thread but for now I will leave you with the following links for folks to read. This is a classic doomer piece and is more relevant today than when it was first written. (I might have to read this agian myself :o)

Tom if you are lurking give us a comment or two eh?

(Could the forum take it????)

Subject: Tom's Take, Part I: Where We Are

 Date; 1998/08/27

 Author:Tom Benjamin

 DN - Tom's Take, Part I: Where We Are

 DN - Tom's Take: Part II Where We are going.

 DN - Tom's Take Part III -- The Fall

 DN - Tom's Take, Part IV, The Final Chapter

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 02, 1999.


Looks like the vast consensus is that "staying put" is better. I think your rationale is mostly well-conceived, however, how many of you are asking "What If?" What if--for one reason or another--staying put doesn't work? Then what? Is there a Plan B?

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), August 02, 1999.

There is an aspect of Y2K that I have never seen mentioned, relevant to this thread, and which is one of the most saddening of the entire painful business. That is, that once again, as always, "money talks." If one has the means, they can buy land or a retreat house in a fairly safe (if you read "Patriots" and other survival novels, you come away feeling that there is/cannot be any truly safe place...so I say "fairly") rural area, surrounded by other decent humans who are GIs. They can also stock up on their supplies quickly and efficiently, not having to buy bits and pieces at sales, nor doing any number of other difficult things to prepare. However, if one is among the many Americans who live from paycheck-to-paycheck, mainly because the government robs them of a huge chunk of their income to pay for pork barrel and "fleecing of America" projects, then they are the ones who will be, like the working poor of all ages, those who "are toast" when TSHTF. It doesn't matter what your virtues or values, how much you tried to survive, if you don't have the financial means to vacate the cities or suburbs, you are stuck there, to perhaps die fighting for your life. This is a very, very difficult period for those of us who realize this all too clearly. It's nice, though, that many of you do have other options. Wish some decent GIs were able and willing to stay and try to help defend those who can't flee!!!

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), August 02, 1999.

Elaine

Y2K is all about location, location, location. Of course that is the way I conduct my life. It is going to be impossible for anyone to recommend anything to anybody if they have no idea of their lifestyle, location, wallet, health, age and on and on.

Something like relocating just for Y2K is a logistics nightmare. Having had done my time in remote locations, I cannot recommend anyone to "bug out" if they have never done it before. No matter what happens home is where the heart is and that is where a person should be if they are insecure of the future.

No matter where you are if you meet folk that know where their home is then you have met people that can help in some manner.

Good luck

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 02, 1999.


I've got some thoughts to share. Let me say most of my family lives in "semi-rural" Illinois "too close to major cities" to really be rural. Plus I live about a 45 minute drive from downtown St. Louis. My Mom lives in the Ozarks on Table Rock Lake in Missouri.

I'm thinking, first, You don't want to be a "new face" somewhere where "new faces" are viewed with suspicion -- maybe thru a rifle scope! If Y2K does turn out to be a "tough cookie", your only value in such a situation might be your "barter value". If your "bartering possessions" got stolen or bartered away at a "price you couldn't refuse", your body would be the only thing having barter value. Not a pretty picture, huh? Dare I say "domestic duties" for women and "work detail" for men? Unfortunately, in areas where there isn't a lot of "politically correct thinking" and "cultural enlightenment", let alone that "thin blue line of law and order", I think a lot of people would take just this kind of advantage of a new comer. I don't think I'll volunteer for this.

Second, my basic premise is that the best approach is to "cache" one's preps in several locations. Home, storage lockers, homes of family and friends -- places where you could go if your home becomes unlivable for some reason, ect. And to divide these preps into what would hold you for a certian period of time. And to only store one "such period of time's worth of preps" in any particular cache. That way, if someone saw you getting your stuff out of your, say, storage locker, and later broke in, they would be "empty handed".

Third, I do think it's best to form a tentitive list of people such as friends and family you would "hook up with". However, with so many people being DGI's, there is no way to predict for sure WHO will react HOW. So, with DGI family and friends like I have, I'm unable to say in advance with who or where I would "hook up" in the event my apartment became unlivable. Thus the importance of being able to "go mobile" if needed...while staying put to eliminate the risk of "hooking up" with the wrong people if it's possible NOT to leave your primary home. However, by "going mobile" I'm talking about making a choice of WHERE to go that's a known environment, like a family members home, ect. -- not driving/walking into "parts unknown" or "unfriendly territory". Plus, since I've been deemed "mission critical" as a programmer/analyst, and have decided to actually go to work and do what I can to fix any problems that DO come up, calling in sick, traveling to some retreat and "riding out whatever storms come along" is not an option for me. If people like me don't do what they can to fix whatever problems do come up, whatever does "break" will just stay broke that much longer. I've thought about this at length. If my decision results in my death, oh well...it's my decision to make...and I'm sticking to it. I don't know how bad things are going to be -- and I know nobody else does either. I'm choosing for me to stick with society, live life the best I can, and take my chances as a "mission critical essential to protect, feed, ect. cog" than to "bug out to the boonies and just "survive"". I've spent enough of my years just "surviving" -- I like the saying Mr. Forbes had put on his tombstone -- "While alive, he lived".

This last point is the most crucial, in my opinion. If things do get bad for a while -- however long that "while" is -- I think all you can do about how ANYBODY will react is just guess. Some family and friends might indeed become "back stabbers". Some strangers might indeed be better than a brother. I think the most important criteria to eval. people on is basic character. Are they good, decent people who consider other's as well as themselves? Are they the types that will always do the right thing, or what they can get away with -- or what they can/will rationalize as "right" when rationalization of bad behavior is required to "look out for number one" at the expense of others or the expense of respect for the property of others (i.e. steal). If YOU are decent, I think being able to READ people is definitely going to be a matter of life or death if TSHTF.

In short, hope to stay put, prepare to bug out, have a tentitive list of places to go where you are known, if possible, and people to hook up with that you trust not to "do you wrong" if possible, have a method of evaluating "hooking up with people and places" if the need arises to bug out (and refine in your mind ahead of time what likely clues to "read"), and have your preps cached in multiple locations, divided up into "units of time supplies", i.e. what you can carry/transport that will last "x" number of days, ect. That's it for now.

Best wishes,



-- Louis (StLouisLouis@Yahoo.com), August 02, 1999.


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