A few months ago, I made a truce offer to Y2K Pro, Mutha, and a few other "trolls" on this forum. The name-calling and other non-sense was getting out of hand. Since then, I have held my temper many times, though I have seen a few "moronic" posts that I couldn't resist. All in all, it did seem to work for a while.

Today, we still have Y2K Pro, but we also have a new batch of "trolls." Doomers Suck is on top of the list, IMHO. Today was one of those days that I couldn't resist. I called DS a moron, and a junior programmer.

Then I read a post by DS here post Y2K : Paradigm shift : Survival of the fittest ? Which fittest? that actually does make a few good points. Even Y2K Pro made some valid comments here: FAA Stuff for Y2KPro.

I can't speak for the entire forum, but I am interested in any and all opinions and information on Y2K. I'm not interested in all the non-sense. If you guys can keep your posts on an intelligent and logical level, I will welcome you with open arms.

I never liked the term "doomer," but I have accepted it. I'm not a member of any cult. I'm just a programmer that has seen the guts of countless computers for 31 years, and I am concerned about Y2K.

So what do you say? Can we cut out the second grade BS and stay on topic? This isn't addressed at just at the polly crowd. Many of the doomers here are just as guilty. Come on folks, we're all adults here. Can't we act like it? <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999

Answers

To recent answers... <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

Sysman,

I'm no "Doomer". In fact I made the distinctin in a post a week or so ago. An actuall Doomer thinks there is no hope, only luck will enable him/her to survive. Their are very, very few of those on this forum. Come to think of it, I can't think of even one.....

We should coin a new term for those of us that are just "keeping our eyes and ears open" and acting accordingly. Lets invite everyone here to a nameing party eh? I have no entry at this time...hey! give me a minute willya?

-- MidWestMike_ (MidWestMike_@hotmail.com), July 23, 1999.

I agree Mike, that's why I never liked the term. GI was so much better! <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

Yep...........

-- MidWestMike_ (MidWestMike_@hotmail.com), July 23, 1999.

AGREE TOTALY with you Sysman! I really would like to hear the OTHER SIDE of the story. I just CAN NOT deal with the "nothing is going to happen" crowd. I use to punch them little old cards back in the 60's, I know better!!!!!!!

-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), July 23, 1999.

How about "tuppies" -- Those Urging Prudent Preparation. "Wuppies" -- We who Urge Prudent Preparation. Or just "Uppie" -- Urging Prudent Preparation.

If the trolls would shut up, OutingsR wouldn't have a job. OutingsR would like to go back to retirement.

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), July 23, 1999.

Uh, uh, uh, Outings R, no retirement for you. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. We ask for, hope for, less trolling. But in reality, it's like the Middle East with competing ethnic beliefs that don't tolerate each other way down deep. Sorrrrry!

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), July 23, 1999.

Thanks Sysman. All genuine opinions are, indeed, valid. I've read a great number of rational arguments, each with a different take on the situation. Given the nature of the supposed Y2K problem it's foolish to bicker over personal matters. I appreciate this thread and everyone who contributes in a positive manner.

-- Mori-Nu (silkenet@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

Sysman

I 100% absolutely agree with your point. In fact, the main thrust of what I have been trying to say over the last few weeks has been along the lines of your thread here. Honest, Civil DEBATE concerning the daily developments on Y2K, and an ongoing assessment of the likely impact of the issuse, WITH CONTRIBUTIONS FROM POSTERS OF EVERY SHADE OF OPINION, can only BENEFIT THE FORUM. You must agree however, that while this forum has the guidelines in place to maintain that kind of environment, the application of those rules is currently being done in such a way as to POSITIVELY ELIMINATE the opportunity for this to come about.

So long as the playing field isnt flat, (those who can for the sake of this analogy, see themselves as . .) the team on the disadvantaged side will OF COURSE make noise and complain. To suggest that the efforts of the moderator team have succeeded in IMPROVING this forum is laughable. Its getting worse by the day.

Witness the many posts from moderate GI's, long time lurkers, experienced regulars, bemoaning the way the forum has been hijacked by extremists. Thats even if you MUST disregard anything which someone like myself has to say. (I believe I make my case well, but I'm being forced to have a conversation with myself, because there is simply no attempt being made by the moderators to discuss their side of the case).

Maybe you can use some of your influence to bring about some kind of change in here. If I personally can do anything to assist you in that endeavour, you may operate from the assumption that all you need to do is ask.

Kind Regards

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

"Can we have another truce?"

I don't know, can we? I guess we'll just wait and see. As soon as Ed comes back, everyone begins to fidget, like the kids in a classroom who have been throwing paper planes and blowing spitballs, seeing the teacher coming down the hall. The disruptive punks suddenly begin raising their hands to patiently ask their stupid questions and continue on their quest to distract, using some manners and appropriate behavior 'for a change'. Those who are never willing to take responsability for a bad situation begin to sigh in relief upon seeing him enter the room and then proceed to point fingers and tattle on those who are willing, as well as those who are the trouble- makers. I'm finding it to be rather amusing, as I'm sure Ed is. Let's not put him in that particular position if possible. Could we simply treat him as an equal participant and less like the headmaster?

I'm 40 years old, I say and think and react the same way whether the teacher is present or not. This isn't home economics. 'Sit down and shut up' is out of place, and likely to fail in *JULY 1999*. "Let's all behave like adults, with calm, well-mannered discourse only" is about to be seriously tested in the next year! We'll just have to wait and see. You're asking leopards to change their spots.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 23, 1999.

Will

Coming from a leopard, this broadly negative viewpoint, (while I defend your right to hold it and express it courteously), does not bode well for Sysman's call for an injection of common sense into this forum.

What a shame.

Regards

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

Sorry W01v3r1n3, my optomistic viewpoint has been wacked around a bit. I tend to attempt to be a bit more of a realist and dislike the mincing of words and the all too many 'hidden meanings' found within courteous conversation. It seems somewhat covert to me. Many people dislike this approach of hitting at the truth, I'm just simply out of patience for linguistic gymnastics. Will I be allowed to participate anyway, or should I go to the principals office?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 23, 1999.

BTW....I too am a leopard, you don't hold the corner on that market, my friend! LOL

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 23, 1999.

Will

Interesting points. In reply, I'd like to make the following counter.

When people of opposing viewpoints stop talking to each other civilly (even when those people are vehemently opposed to each other, sometimes historically over many generations), the only recourse which remains is destructive conflict. For myself, I prefer the former, and damn the compromises it may take. (Example: N Ireland, Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, etc etc).

As to the question of your continued participation, the question is unusual. Noting the free hand which you (and many posters who sit close to you along the scale of opinion), are currently given in here, to observe or ignore the rules as you (all) see fit, the fact of one benefiting from a prejudicial arrangement asking whether their continued participation should be sanctioned by one who is falling victim to the same arrangement smacks to me of sarcasm.

As to verbal gymnastics. If I understand you correctly, you seem to desire a situation where the use of language in a creative and stimulating way to further the understanding of complex issues is outlawed, and where bare-fisted yelling-matches become the norm. Personally, I always think it's wise to encourage good debating, and to try, by example I hope, to encourage others to apply the same lebel of thought to the way in which they express the things they wish to say. If you advocate that we all jump down to the same level and battle it out using the most shocking insults and base language possible, I fear I have to oppose that notion.

Finally, if you think I'm campaigning for a reversal of the current status-quo, to a situation where pollies are allowed to run riot, and doomers are muzzled, then you have me wrong. What I AM campaigning for, is an environment where ALL posters are extended the same rights and protections as any other, and where debate can take place WITHOUT all this childish finger pointing and arguing over semantics. It may surprise you to learn that I WANT TO TALK ABOUT Y2K TOO. But if the price of that is my kowtowing to a regime which denies me the same rights which it extends to others, simply because some of my opinions vary to theirs, then thats a price I wont pay.

Kind regards

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

Sysman, good proposal. I fully agree. The depth and scope of the y2k debate would certainly improve if our 'basic instincts'(!) are restrained somewhat (laughs please). For one, I am also guilty of some name-calling here and there sometimes... and some occasional Flint-bashing also... (my apologies Flint)... and some poignant chain pulling too...

Furthermore, maybe I shouldn't say this myself, but something absolutely 'strange' happened at my thread ("post Y2K: Paradigm Shift: Survival of the Fittest? Which Fittest?"). Well, come to think of it it wasn't that "strange" really. I am referring to Mr. Doomers Suck himself, who as from this date has apparently decided to improve his manners (forever hereinafter?... please?)

First, s/he changed his name to something like "Doomers still suck" or something to that extent, which reveals at least a willingless to negotiate his attitude. But most important of all is that Mr.Suck himself has posted his first thought-out, in-depth, consistent answer to the subject matter at hand. Which means he certainly has good value to add to this forum. And I said that come to think of it this change wasn't that "strange" because I have the hunch (I may be wrong) that it could have been triggered off by my most considerate "Please, Sir, do not disrupt/disturb us Sir. Thank you Sir" . Which, if true, means that a respectful plea can many times work wonders. Quite truly it was a very pleasant surprise. And I'm pretty sure we would all welcome Mr.Sucks and Mutha and Y2K Pro to continue sharing their pertinent and relevant ideas with the rest of us in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

Sysman, again, good idea, good perception.

P.S.: Another suggestion, Let's try to focus on what the thread proposes. Like on this very thread, Sysman proposes a truce. Let's agree/disagree on THAT then, instead of deviating the subject to whether the "doomer" idiom suits our personalities or not. Now don't get me wrong. I would very much like the "doomer" terminology debate to develop, but not on THIS thread. O.Kay? Agree? Disagree?

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), July 23, 1999.

It would be nice to see W0lv3r1n3 talk about Y2K for a change. He never does.

-- I'm (still@wait.ing), July 23, 1999.

I'm

Provide an environment where its WORTH discussing Y2K, and possible to do so without being victimised for having a viewpoint which may differ from that of others, and I promise you I will not be shy about discussing all and any Y2K issues upon which I have an opinion.

deal ?

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

Thanks for the constructive critique W0lv3r1n3. Creative and stimulating language is more than welcome. Personally, I'm all stimulated out. The subject at hand has been creatively discussed to death. Much like beating a dead horse, but pump up those dictionaries if you choose. There are many of us who still love to read!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 23, 1999.

W

If you are not here to discuss Y2k issues then why precisely are you here? If you do not feel that the forum provides those needs for you than I humbly suggest you go elsewhere because you are taking up a lot of bandwidth on what must be (by your own admission) OT.

I have always treated everyone with respect. I never flame and don't feel the need to convince every one in the world to agree with me. As a result I get treated with respect and tolerance too. If you don't like it here do something else. I am tired of scrolling thorugh long posts with no content. Please provide relevant Y2k content or find something more fun to do on a summer day.

-- R (riversoma@aol.com), July 23, 1999.

R

Suggest you actually READ some of my posts, rather than "scrolling through them". You'd realise then that your accusation and vitriol is misdirected.

Regards

W

PS - Are you the new "Sysop" ? I wondered where you got the authority to post this . . "Please provide relevant Y2k content or find something more fun to do on a summer day".

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

W-

I have yet to see a post deleted because someone was to polly... I have seen posts deleted because of their disruptivness... You are free to post and talk about Y2K all you want to.

And if you feel so oppressed by the forces of evil... Go to the greener pastures of oz... Why do YOU let yourself being oppressed...? If you don't like it here... Why hang out...?

This is not meant as a flame at all by the way.. The internet is such a big medium that there is surely a place for you to call your own. And no, life is not fair sometimes. You should see the crap (censorship) I have to put up with for being on a certain doglist. But I like some of the info I receive from the list. So to me it's worth having to SHUT UP from time to time....

You have a great day and hope you will discuss y2k sometime and not just cry about the rules on this board.

-- STFrancis (STFrancis@heaven.com), July 23, 1999.

I have hesitated addressing this issue until now because I would prefer to post about Y2k itself rather than get all touchy-feely about TB2000.

In any society there are those who go about the business of life and those who try to disrupt it. Its true everywhere. The greater the freedom of speech the more disruptive the opinions that can be expressed. This forum itself is an example of people who are trying to "disrupt" the status quo of ignorance and denial. We can do this because of technology and chutzpah. We would be naive in the extreme to expect that we would not be subject to attack by those whom we are disrupting. They will avail themselves of the same lack of censorship we enjoy. This is the risk and joy of no censorship.

The clock is ticking. We can expect more and more "trolls." we can expect more and more insanity. These are insane times.

The day people stop trying to disrupt this forum is the day that we have ceased to be effective. I would humbly suggest that maturity is a survival trait and we ought to exercise it here.

I know how maddening it can be. I have never been at a loss for words and quite often I can feel profanity and derision just aching to get out of my head and into the keyboard. I resist.

Why?

I'm a dang grown-up!!!! I don't have time for foolishness and I don't have energy to waste. Please. I don't care what the "trolls" say or do and I wish you wouldn't either.

-- R (riversoma@aol.com), July 23, 1999.

"The day people stop trying to disrupt this forum is the day that we have ceased to be effective. I would humbly suggest that maturity is a survival trait and we ought to exercise it here....."

What a fantastic take.... thank you very, very much.

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), July 23, 1999.

Sysman

I think you have your answer. As the supposed "polly" representative here, I hope I made myself plain. I will fight JUST as energetically for polly trolls to stay within the guidelines, and treat this forum and its posters, (and indeed the subject) with respect and tolerance.

BUT, I cant reasonably do that until there exists an environment which makes that kind of civil discourse possible. And it is clear by the comments of the "doomer" (to coin the objectionable phrase) representatives on this thread, that they have no interest whatsoever in helping to bring those circumstances about.

I dont see what else can be said. They refuse to listen and they wont see anyone elses side but their own. Plainly, they cant see a problem with the way things are now. One can only assume that despite their claims, they actually enjoy the time wasted here arguing with the "trolls".

You gave them a way to rid themselves of this phenomenon. They werent interested. In the words of your chief moderator . . "Nuff Said".

Kindest Regards, and the best of luck

W

PS - Lisa . . Your deceitfulness and duplicitousness in dealing with our conversations have not gone unnoticed. I now know on what basis you wish to be dealt with. Don't ever say that I came down to your level willingly, or without a struggle. I wish you had been capable of finding in yourself the resources to behave otherwise.

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

Folks,

What has been illustrated here, and splattered on a half-dozen other threads, is the mental confusion of a real paranoid. We have immaturity, fixation, imagined accusations and "vitriol", and now veiled threats. If this person can't "get over it", he should consider professional help.

-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), July 23, 1999.

"Folks"

What you see above is an attempt by a nameless entity, pretending authority, to explain to you WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK.

I suggest, respectfully, that you should read the information in the posts, and make up your own mind.

If you choose not to do so, one would assume that the anonymous Mr Grease will suggest similar counselling for you as that which he recommends for me. Perhaps he, or she, has first hand experience of the need for counselling, and jusging by their God complex (evidenced by their presuming that you need all this explaining to you by a "higher power") they still do.

Kind regards

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

W0lv3r1n3:

Please quit while you're ahead................

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), July 23, 1999.

W,

I presume no authority, I am not anonymous, I am not going to suggest counselling to anyone else, and you continue to verify the illustration. GET OVER IT, or take your petulant, whining little butt somewhere else.

The sad thing is that I've read some very astute insights from you in the past, and rather than see you depart, I personally would prefer to see your continued *on topic* participation.

-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), July 23, 1999.

EG

Then quit shooting the messenger, and realise that there are things wrong with this forum that need fixing.

If you honestly did find any value in being able to hear my opinion on ON Topic issues, then I implore you to realise that if things carry on as they are, it wont only be my point of view you'll lose, but also that of countless other moderate people who cannot, or will not countenance further participation under these circumstances.

Or, if you prefer, just carry on blaming me for speaking out, and ignore the issue.

Whatever. I'm tired of this effort . . and for what ?

If you're all happy with the lame, one-sided, debate-free, circle jerk, that this forum has become, and you REALLY think its a valid resource for evaluating your priorities and guiding your personal preparations, then all I can say is . . MORE FOOL YOU.

Hasta que cambian las cosas, no volveri a comentar. Esta todo.

Regards

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

Lest you think Wolfie is not preparing for Y2K --

http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb237006&MyNum=9 28850429&P=Yes&TL=928784894

Debunking Y2k webboard

Re: cpr, poole, decker, mutha,dirty, peg, etc.

Tuesday, 08-Jun-1999 10:00:29

193.243.244.8 writes:

Nobody asked me directly, but I'll pitch in anyway. The following outlines the "preparations" which my extended family have in place for the new year. (Please note that none of this is specific to Y2K, but would in any case be available.)

The plan for myself, wife and child, is to drive down to central Spain in mid-December, to spend Christmas and the New year in my wife's family's house, a 19th Century castillian farm comprising 3 buildings enclosed by tall stone walls (forming a courtyard), surrounded by many acres of the rich red soil that gives the area its nickname of "La tierra del pan y vino".

There, we have access to the normal reserves of products which rural-dwellers in that country keep on hand as a matter of course.

These include :- a cellar full of local wine - mostly "Toro" - (the region, not the animal), a large "panadera" (or dry-basement) stocked with dried, preserved and canned foodstuffs (which would usually be employed to help the family through the harsh and long winter), and, (this being Spain, where they eat anything with 4 legs except the tables), a ridiculous quantity of home-produced products of Pig-origin, including Jamon Serrano, Chorizo, Salchichon, Lomo adobado, morcilla, and which, being a vegetarian, I shall NOT be taking advantage of.

Also by then the autumn harvest will have provided us with copious quantities of tomatoes, peppers, onions, fruit and other assorted items from the land. The village bread keeps for years too.

We have a freshwater well within the courtyard area, and, having destroyed the last of the family's vines this year, about enough firewood to last until Y3K. The nearest inhabited house is 3 miles away, and the closest town (only 42,000 inhabitants) is a 30 minute drive.

As idyllic as all this sounds, I expect to be back at my desk in London by 1-15-00 (doing it the american way). Strangely though, since actually having to sit down and list it all, I'm almost tempted to hope we DO get "confined to barracks" for a few months. What better excuse to drill a large hole in the wine cellar.

W0lv3r1n3

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), July 23, 1999.

One thing before I go . .

Outings . .

You are a nasty, spineless, sinister, cowardly, devious, self- immolating, onanistic little weasel, and I sincerely hope that both your armpits become chronically infected with the Calcutta Camel- Mange, and that calomine lotion is the first and only serious supply problem discovered in your state after the rollover.

There is NOTHING which can be said in your favour.

Or, as the Spanish would say . . A que te folle un pez.

(there, now you all have a posting of mine where I resorted to an ad- hom attack . . make hay)

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

OK, so don't quit while you're ahead.....

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), July 23, 1999.

Hey, Wolfie -- does calamine lotion really cure Calcutta Camel-Mange? You mind if I cross-post this to the prep forum so we can all stock up? Is it good for Soho Brain-Rot too?

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), July 23, 1999.

Does it work on Texas Tailmites, too?

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), July 23, 1999.

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999. wrote:

[snip]

Outings . .

You are a nasty, spineless, sinister, cowardly, devious, self- immolating, onanistic little weasel, and I sincerely hope that both your armpits become chronically infected with the Calcutta Camel- Mange, and that calomine lotion is the first and only serious supply problem discovered in your state after the rollover.

There is NOTHING which can be said in your favour.

[snip]

*POT*

*KETTLE*

*BLACK*

-- (cujo@baddog.byte), July 23, 1999.

Why keep on ?

Youve got what you wanted. Surely you dont begrudge me ONE little itty bitty ad-hom at anonymous-Outings-of-the-white-sheet-and-hood on my way out ?

Im not going to persue this any more. Ive said enough. Private mails I've received (from the most unlikely sources) tell me that I've got through to some extent. Thats one of the benefits of being genuine and just stating what you believe, its resonant.

I dont need to spar with you. Those who matter to me on this forum see you, and the things you do, and they know how to read it.

So, in the words of tricky dicky . . "You wont have W0lv3r1n3 to kick around any more".

Maybe I will take up that idea of forming a REAL discussion forum where people can be unafraid to voice an opinion, so long as they remain courteous and coherent, and play by the rules.

That way anyone would be able to see the strength (or otherwise) of peoples arguments. One thing you'll never see in here.

Adios.

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.

Outings knows not what it does. In a thread trying to reach some kind of truce, outings proves that it is the most disruptive troll of all. Outings should be hung by the most painful part of the anatomy. Outings has no brain, outings has no talents except to copy and paste, outings is a true troll no matter what the motive.

-- Whereis (the@censorship.hereandnow), July 23, 1999.

Thanks for the mention Sysman, I had no idea you noticed. You all want a truce from me? Fine, you got it. I'll only lurk here from now on and add only intelligent, civil posts to your threads. It totally goes against my grain but in the spirit of peace then I'll stop with the trolling. My only sarcastic remarks will come in the form of my handle. I hope those of you who know it applies to will include it into whatever else I might write. Take it from me I wasn't trolling out of the blue. I've been around here for a long time and I have a history with this forum under other names but since I changed my tune I figured why not change my handle as well.

So there you have it. An acceptance of your "truce" from a Junior Programmer. But remember Sysman I worked on aircraft (twin engines) for over ten years and if nothing else I've learned how to tell which way the wind blows, so to speak.

-- (Doomers@suck.com), July 23, 1999.

Mr. Sucks, let's live in peace then, sir. Your input is welcome.

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), July 23, 1999.

I'm mostly a lurker, but I've had other guises in the past. I started out as someone who was midly amused by the possibility of y2k, bit of excitement and all that. Sometime around mid to late 98 I was seriously pessimistic, a real doomer (no hope). I then went thru a short trolling Polly phase, adopting a ridiculing tone or throwing up irrelevancies. I sort of popped up and disappeared pretty quickly but I regret it very much because I didn't really make or elicit any new information on Y2K. I just added to the noise level. Worst of all, it was dishonest. These days I lurk mostly. Like Sysman I occasionally have to relieve myself (In my case it's usually against some of the more bull-necked or overtly right-wing doomists). I've also noticed movement from fixed positions by long-time protagonists at both ends of the spectrum, though mostly at the 'GI' end (more nuanced rather than more optimistic). Everybody is growing up y2k in their own different ways. That's my little babbling brook FWIW. I'm with you on this Sysman I sniff convergence in the air - let it come sooner rather than later, time is of the essence. We've had thesis, antithesis, now its time for synthesis. 'Whatever happens with Y2K, it will be like nothing that has ever happened before.' (Bonnie Camp - I believe)

-- Chris Byrne (cbyrne98@hotmail.com), July 23, 1999.

DS,

Thank you, very much. I have gained a new respect for you. What a difference a day can make! I will now consider you a Y2K optimist, rather than just a trouble maker, and I hope the rest of the forum does the same. And I hope the other "trolls" on this forum follow your example!

I really do believe that this is the best Y2K site on the net. If we can eliminate some of the noise, we can make it even better.

Doomers@suck.com, have a great weekend!!! <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), July 23, 1999.