Clinton Administration has destroyed our military capability:

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/#FACTS

Check out this site, this was released by the Clinton administration: The details of US forces and their weapon systems might rattle the board room of Janes. Janes is a resource for military minded governments thoughout the world. This site "tells" who, what, where of bases and home bases. Worse than that, they list EVERY US Naval ship and their homeport. I'm sure their are many more reasons to question this resource, you go figure.

The disclosure of US forces and their weapon systems:

This site "tells" who, what, where of bases and home bases. Worse than that, they list EVERY US Naval ship and their Commanders and personnel. Not to mention theyre home port. I'm sure their are many more reasons to question this resource, you go figure.

Check this site out, it reports numbers of personnel. Number of tanks, aircraft, ships, and even where they are stationed, how many chemical warfare suites available to the Marines etc.

This is too much, if you are military, or ex-military, you will be appalled at this political breach in national security

Im ex-Air Force. We are all one shield of democracy. The Navy and the Army were the original forces, the Marines were a spin off of the Navy, the Air Force was a spin off of the Army in the name of the Army Air Core. Brothers in Arms. Lets act that way.

If nothing else, find the troop levels for the combined forces since 1960. You will see that the Clinton admin. Has reduced the combined forces bye ~33% since 94.

Sorry, Im rambling

-- MidWestMike_ (MidWestMike_@hotmail.com), July 22, 1999

Answers

Mike,

I hear you, but have you looked at it another way? The Prez has reduced *our* military force and costs, BUT he has drafted NATO into doing a lot of those things. So, I don't know, is that cool or what?

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), July 22, 1999.

Gordon, he has not only significantly reduced the size of our military, he has presided over the total demoralization of this once proud fighting force. You can bet our enemies are aware of these conditions.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 22, 1999.

Mike,

I think BOTH Clinton and the Generals who run the show have destroyed our military. Yesterday, just before todays .MIL budget vote, I read a report (in a paper, not online so I have no link) that the military had spent HUNDREDS of millions of dollars without Congressional approval, much of it on projects Congress had specifically cut funding for. Basically they just did what they wanted with OUR money.

If they had just put that money where it belonged, we might not be in the mess we are today...

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), July 22, 1999.

I await the change in discussion that Ed promises. Military might is going down the tubes with the rest of civilization. Hopefully the dregs of the arms race won't be capable of putting on any more wars. If we have to use nuclear weapons who cares whether "we" win or not? In the perspective of the old civilization a military career was honorable...after 2000 it won't be anymore. Are we supposed to rebuild a world like this one? Clinton did an honorable thing in the Balkans and in Haiti. He stepped up to a monster, unlike the Europeans in 1938. And the UN, NATO...great! Were you guys hating Bush when the British did such good work in Iraq? It doesn't matter, the less military now the better. Soldiers don't grow food, they commandeer it.

-- Sand Mueller (smueller@azalea.net), July 22, 1999.

Sand,

Gee, I don't know about that doing a grand thingy in the Balkans. Wish Andy were back to plug in some links along that line.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), July 22, 1999.

Forgive me, but this is an issue I've been deeply ambivalent about. Seems to me that, after the end of the Cold War, a "peace dividend" was in order. As much as I honor and respect the sacrifices of our servicemen, there comes a time to beat the swords back into ploughshares and get on with the business of peaceful living. Such a huge committment to massive military spending increases the size, power, and reach of the Federal Government -- furthermore it gets corporations and individuals and towns hooked on the pork from Uncle Sam's deep coffers, just like heroin.

Money spent on billlion dollar weapons could've been more wisely spent on better intelligence, better spies, better subversion so as to quietly nip all future conflicts in the bud before they start.

Having said that, let me qualify that circumstances are indeed changing. Our dear President is fumbling around and trashing the credibility and positive example of America's greatness. He's made lots and lots of enemies. He's turning us into a hated, envied, and feared imperial power, not a beacon of Democracy's light. We would have been fine with smaller defence had WJC not ruined our reputation so badly. Sadly, he's simulataneously trashed defence and increased the likelihood of our being attacked. Double whammy. Too bad we actually NEED a bigger defence now on account of stupid leadership!

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), July 22, 1999.

coprolith,

Nice summation of the thoughts of a heavy heart. The world is a more dangerous place today than it was ten years ago. The Russians are perceived as a "non-threat". This is nuts. The Chinese get more vocally aggressive by the year. Innumerable Middle East threats, South American commie plots, India gettin ready to wupup on Pakistan, China on Taiwan.

Overall size of militaries:

1) China (pop~1.2 billion)

2) America (pop~270 million)

3) Russia (pop~200 million)

4) India (pop~8oo million)

(I find this list highly suspect, I'd put India #2, and Russia #3, the US would then be #4, that makes for some sleeples nights)

(Note the chart above is from memory...any corrections are welcome.

Back to the subject at hand. Do you see any friends in that list? Our largest NATO member (in troop strength) is Germany with ~350 thousand. The US has a total of about 1.6 million men in arms. Shit China has a million. And all the nuclear technology Clinton sold and gave to them. The Russians have 15,000 nuclear missiles hanging around god knows where ("we" should of listened to Reagan and developed the Strategic Defense Initiative, Star Wars for all you left-wingers out there). Ah well, I guess everyone will just have to play "fair" eh?

Did anyone check out the site I referenced at the beginning?

-- MidWestMike_ (MidWestMike_@hotmail.com), July 23, 1999.

Oops,

"Shit China has a million"

I meant to say at least 10 million.

***Movie of the Day:

"The Vikings", with Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis, 1958.

5 out of 5 stars in my book.

-- MidWestMike_ (MidWestMike_@hotmail.com), July 23, 1999.

Coprolith,

Your "Peace Dividend", which you DID GET, consisted of the closure of a large number of bases. One of which, in NY State, meant the death of a city. The city doesn't QUITE realize it's dead yet, that's the way dinosaurs and cities die, from the outside in and the brains are so far removed that the body is dead before the brain realizes it. I went back to this city last year, which is very near my home town, and it is frightening. NO work, virtually the whole town is closed stores, the restaurants are almost all gone, it's very bad. The closure of the base meant that the businesses that supplied the base lost their last customer, the people who worked for those companies lost their jobs, and the companies that supported the needs of those people lost their matket and it just spiraled.

Conf to Midwest Mike:: If you were a SAC guy and made it to Griffis, and remember the Savoy restaurant, she's still hangin' on but a mere shadow of her former self, since she has to survive on the kids of the families who knew her in her hey-day.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), July 23, 1999.

Mike

Your kidding, right? Janes is not a security threat to the US or any other country. The information contained is not hard to get and has always been available. Did you see similar information for the Chinese? I bet your did.

I am not apologizing for the Communist-in-Chief. He has crippled our military and has probably started the next arms race. But the information contained in Janes has been available for decades.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), July 23, 1999.

Here is an interesting AP wire regarding Russia's military:

==================================================

"Report: Russian officers rent out soldiers as slave labor

------------------------------------------------------------------------

MOSCOW (AP) - Some military officers in southern Russia have been renting out their troops as slave labor, and a number of the young soldiers have subsequently been kidnapped and taken to the breakaway Chechnya region, a newspaper reported Friday.

A number of similar reports have surfaced in recent months, and several Russian soldiers have been charged with selling their troops directly to Chechen kidnappers, according to Russia media reports.

``The sale of soldiers by their commanders has become endemic in military units stationed in'' southern Russia, the business daily Kommersant said.

Russia fought a war against Chechnya from 1994-96 before withdrawing its forces in a humiliating retreat. The lawless region has been plagued by kidnappings and violence. Russia still maintains a large number of troops near the Chechen borders in an effort to keep the turmoil from spreading.

The Russian troops regularly encounter armed Chechen gangs that cross the border to take hostages or launch attacks in southern Russia. But morale in the Russian military is extremely low, and there are periodic reports of Russian officers abusing those under their command.

Kommersant cited an April incident where a sergeant allegedly rented out two young soldiers to a local resident in exchange for 0.35 ounces of heroin.

After one day of work in the fields of Sputnik, the soldiers' new master sold them to Chechen kidnappers, who took them into the renegade territory and demanded thousands of dollars for their release.

One soldier was eventually freed thanks to the mediation of a humanitarian group, but the other remains in captivity, the newspaper reported.

In another Caucasus region, Dagestan, at least 50 soldiers have been sold from the 136th Motorized Infantry Brigade stationed in the city of Buinaksk, the report said.

Russian servicemen are poorly fed, equipped and paid. There are frequent reports of soldiers committing crimes, shooting each other and taking their own lives.

========================================== End

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 23, 1999.

Italics Off

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 23, 1999.

Mike

Your kidding, right? Janes is not a security threat to the US or any other country.

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net)

No eyes, I'm not kidding. While I didn't imply that "Janes" was a threat, I am now. That doesn't mean I want any action against them, I'm confident they are an honorable bunch. What I was refering to was the amount of detail available at the click of a mouse at

"http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/#FACTS"

For example:

START

"B2 Bomber

Mission

The B-2 Spirit is a multi-role bomber capable of delivering both conventional and nuclear munitions. A dramatic leap forward in technology, the bomber represents a major milestone in the U.S. bomber modernization program. The B-2 brings massive firepower to bear, in a short time, anywhere on the globe through previously impenetrable defenses.

Features

Along with the B-52 and B-1B, the B-2 provides the penetrating flexibility and effectiveness inherent in manned bombers. Its low-observable, or "stealth," characteristics give it the unique ability to penetrate an enemy's most sophisticated defenses and threaten its most valued, and heavily defended, targets. Its capability to penetrate air defenses and threaten effective retaliation provide a strong, effective deterrent and combat force well into the 21st century.

The revolutionary blending of low-observable technologies with high aerodynamic efficiency and large payload gives the B-2 important advantages over existing bombers. Its low-observability provides it greater freedom of action at high altitudes, thus increasing its range and a better field of view for the aircraft's sensors. Its unrefueled range is approximately 6,000 nautical miles (9,600 kilometers).

The B-2's low observability is derived from a combination of reduced infrared, acoustic, electromagnetic, visual and radar signatures. These signatures make it difficult for the sophisticated defensive systems to detect, track and engage the B-2. Many aspects of the low-observability process remain classified; however, the B-2's composite materials, special coatings and flying-wing design all contribute to its "stealthiness."

The B-2 has a crew of two pilots, a pilot in the left seat and mission commander in the right, compared to the B-1B's crew of four and the B-52's crew of five.

Background

The first B-2 was publicly displayed on Nov. 22, 1988, when it was rolled out of its hangar at Air Force Plant 42, Palmdale, Calif. Its first flight was July 17, 1989. The B-2 Combined Test Force, Air Force Flight Test Center, Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., is responsible for flight testing the engineering, manufacturing and development aircraft as they are produced.

Whiteman AFB, Mo., is the B-2's only operational base. The first aircraft, Spirit of Missouri, was delivered Dec. 17, 1993. Depot maintenance responsibility for the B-2 is performed by Air Force contractor support and is managed at the Oklahoma City Air Logistics Center at Tinker AFB, Okla.

The prime contractor, responsible for overall system design and integration, is Northrop Grumman's Military Aircraft Systems Division. Boeing Military Airplanes Co., Hughes Radar Systems Group and General Electric Aircraft Engine Group are key members of the aircraft contractor team. Another major contractor, responsible for aircrew training devices (weapon system trainer and mission trainer) is Hughes Training Inc. (HTI) - Link Division, formerly known as CAE - Link Flight Simulation Corp. Northrop Grumman and its major subcontractor HTI, are responsible for developing and integrating all aircrew and maintenance training programs.

General Characteristics

Primary function: Multi-role heavy bomber. Prime Contractor: Northrop Grumman Corp. Contractor Team: Boeing Military Airplanes Co., General Electric Aircraft Engine Group and Hughes Training Inc., Link Division Power Plant: Four General Electric F-118-GE-100 engines Thrust: 17,300 pounds each engine Length: 69 feet (20.9 meters) Height: 17 feet (5.1 meters) Wingspan: 172 feet (52.12 meters) Speed: High subsonic Ceiling: 50,000 feet (15,152 meters) Takeoff Weight (Typical): 336,500 pounds (152,635 kilograms) Range: Intercontinental, unrefueled Armament: Conventional or nuclear weapons Payload: 40,000 pounds (18,144 kilograms) Crew: Two pilots Unit cost: Approximately $1.3 billion Date Deployed: December 1993 Inventory: Active force: 21 (planned operational aircraft); ANG: 0; Reserve: 0"

END

Right here you have all the info any terrorist could want, everything except a gate pass that is. Number of aircraft, location (notice it says Whiteman AFB, in my own state no less, is the ONLY operational B2 base. Gee if I was lookin' for a B2 to blow up, where would I go? On this site you can find out how many chem. warfare suites the marines have in stock, how many tanks, how many aircraft carriers and all the ship in any given carrier group along with their names, the commanders name and picture, shoot some of these probably have pictures all the way down to the cook. I must admit it's a boatload of fun to read, but I think it's a little less than wise to make all these details available to anyone with a keyboard.

snipme......

-- Mike (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), July 23, 1999.

How would you complete this progression:

2,000,000 Years Ago - Families

1,000,000 YA - Tribes

100,000 YA - Villages

10,000 YA - City-states

1,000 YA - Nation-states

?????

-- a (a@a.a), July 23, 1999.

How would you complete this progression:

2,000,000 Years Ago - Families

1,000,000 YA - Tribes

100,000 YA - Villages

10,000 YA - City-states

1,000 YA - Nation-states

?????

-- a (a@a.a), July 23, 1999.

Well.....

100 years ago, the industrial revolution and Marxism

50 years ago, Fascism and Patriotism

and the winner is ...(wait what day is this? oh 1/1/2000?)

Back to the industrial revolution folks! (we'll skip the Marxism this time, thank you....)

-- Mike (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), July 23, 1999.

Mike

Yup. That's a good example of the high quality infromation normally found in Jane's. And none of it is classified. I hate to say this on a forum when so many people are foolishly saying "Don't worry." but...

...Don't worry. The real security threat is in the Oval Office selling nukes to the Red Chinese. It's not technical publications like Janes or Aviation week and Space Technology.

a

Let's just skip right back to City States. I don't want to live in a world society which is pulled down by an Entitlment Culture mentality and short sighted liberal/marxist ideologists. Americal became a huge economic power not by "exploiting" the rest of the world, but by providing maximum opportunity for it's own population.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), July 23, 1999.

eyes: my point is that we are all looking at a very small period of the history of man. My guess is that within the next 10-50 years there will be one world government, like it or not, for better or worse. The trend clearly shows that its the next stage of life on this planet. And just as there was plenty of pain and suffering involved making the previous transitions, the same will be true for this one.

However, if things go seriously wrong between now and then (nuclear war, Infomagic scenario, or other near-ELE) we may indeed return to the city-state, or maybe all the way back to the tribal village.

-- a (a@a.a), July 23, 1999.

My take is that Klinton and/or Gore are looking for China (Chi-Com) to appoint them "governors for life" of North America, after China defeats the U.S. in a nuke war or bluffs the U.S. into capitulating under threat of Hawaii, the west coast of the U.S. being nuked.

The Kosovo operation's purpose was to shoot off most of the U.S. weaponry (bombs and bullets), so as to provide a "good" excuse for not being able to resist a Chi-Com takeover of Taiwan, and then helping N.Korea take over S. Korea, then Japan, then put it to the U.S. to capitulate or get wiped.

-- A (A@AisA.com), July 23, 1999.

"My fellow Americans (cue trembling of lower lip, here) in the interests of ensuring the freedom and safety of all Americans, we have entered into a political and economic agreeement with The Democratic Peoples Republic of China to accept their assistance in protection against terrorists, both domestic and foreign, and against rogue nuclear nations. Our two great countries, both commited to the freedom, economic prosperity, and human concerns of our respective peoples, have united in ensuring the safety and liberty, not only of our own citizenry, but of that of the entire world.

"So that we may expeditiously accomplish this grand purpose, the United States has signed a treaty with China. We mutually affirm that we will esnure that any illegal opposition to our noble purposes will be punished to the full extent of the law. .... blah blah blah"

In conclusion, I remain (indefinitely) your President, William Jefferson Clinton

-- A (A@AisA.com), July 23, 1999.

Thanks A,

That was very well presented, and I have no doubt that the current admin would find no fault in it. Until that is, they stick their slimy fingers in the wind. No matter how gullible we have been, the American People would not swallow this one. Nor would our military allow it. Clinton is looking for peace through butt-kissing to be sure, but it will never work. History has proven peace is only achieved though a position of strength.

-- MidWestMike_ (MidWestMike_@hotmail.com), July 23, 1999.