when the churches at this late date dgi were in trouble

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Sat thru the last part of a y2k seminar at my church today. While I give them credit for at least putting on this seminar I was not very pleased with the way the message was delivered. The speaker who was cited as the expert and one of the churches I.T staff people quoted various happy face media reports and basically sent the message that y2k was not going to be a big deal and that people should prepare for only minor disruptions lasting from 3-7 days or up to 14 days max. What a morron. I had to every thing I could to control my christian spirit from turning over the table and walking out. When the churches spew the Govt party line which most seem to be doing, our country is in deep do-do. Y2k will be an unpresented I.T. event that will severly Impact our planet. The computer failure's societal Impact will be exponentially exacerbated by the mass denial of the church and it's leaders to the properly identify problem potentials that y2k will cause and get it's members mobilized. It may be ignorance or arrogance I wont be able to tell until I get a reply to the letter I am now writting to my chuch's leadership concerning the seminar I witnessed today. If they feel like y2k is a fixed deal why do they even bother putting on a seminar. When God told us in his word that were not to live in fear it didnt mean ignore Life threatening events when you have positive evidence that it was soon coming. History 50 years ago taught us a big lesson when several nations were in denial about the nazi threat, they lost many lives big time. They ignored God's warnings. Nations are ignoring the warnings because the message is a little scary. Well that just wont cut it. If were to be the salt and the light were to lay out the full facts on the table so our bretheren can make informed decisions based on the best Info available, properly analyzed for truthful content. When life and death matters are at stake question all info. What does history say about I.T metrics facts,what Independent auditing was done. If any organization is not willing to provide compience proof thru an independant y2k audit of their systems dont believe what there press releases say. Y2k will be made worse because of the mass denial and govt misinformation spin campaige that is now being waged. To all church members be the Salt and the light. What ever you can do with in reason to help make your community y2k aware do it. write do you have your y2k toolbox ready every where. If the media is blocking the awareness message, we have the power of the pen and free speach let's use it. Y2k wont be a non issue until we make every one aware.

-- y2k aware mike (y2k aware mike @ conservation . com), July 19, 1999

Answers

Y2k aware, I understand completely what you are saying in this area. Was involved in a y2k task force for my church. We did some good but not much. I have continued on my own. I think alot of the problem is that church leaders don't want to commit to the y2k issue for "fear" it is a non-issue. They don't want to be remembered "warning" their people for an event that never took place. They think it would reflect on their credability in the the pulpit. Many want to be know as "Jesus" churches and not y2k churches. It is definately a muddy issue for those in that position. Our preacher took the middle of the road path and told people abt the situation, had a seminar, presented the different scenerios from bump in the road to teotwawki. After that he left it to up to the people to address the issue. My understanding is that he and his family are preparing but it is a personal decision after that. I have trouble with this approach a little bit, but actually think it could be considered appropriate in some ways. He is preaching on coming judgement to AMerica quite often, however. He is referencing David Wilkerson's two book's on the coming Judgement of America. Bottotm line: I think he is aware of upcoming events and is warning people, however, he is laying a certain amount of responsability on the listeners shoulders. Just like salvation, he is allowing them to make the choice for or against preparation. And in the end, in both situations we will find out who is right. God or no God, Heaven or Hell, Y2k or bump in the road. (no flames guys, this is a private interpretation to another's statement. I don't expect all of you to agree!)

May God bless you in your preps! Remember to rely on him, though, and not just your preps! Tornados and disaster's can happen to take away any self reliance one may have built up..Keep your eyes on Jesus!

May God bless you in your preps,

-- Moore Dinty moore (not@thistime.com), July 19, 1999.


Hopefully, y2k will not only spur a reformed government but also a reformed church. I believe it will.

As a pastor of a church, I am on the opposite side of the fight. Neither my board nor my people believe y2k will be that bad. I have conducted a seminar for the church and the community. Three out of thirty were from the church. I moderate the county y2k meeting on a weekly basis. Two from my church attend. Worse, the board made a motion to make me take out the y2k announcement out of the bulletin. (I have bankers on the board).

The county is not prepared, the local municipalities are not prepared, the fire companies are not preparing, the county emergency management is not preparing, and the churches are not preparing. There are only select individuals preparing and they will only be ready for a month to two months. The pastors of the other churches are clueless. They are not on the internet. I had one pastor ask me to make a presentation last month and 75 turned out after I paid for a full page ad in the local paper advertising the meeting. I minced no words and presented overhead after overhead. I told them they needed to be ready for six months. I also told them God doesn't want His people to be fearful or anxious and to prepare for others. They affirmed my message that God's judgments are coming to America. Wilkerson is right on here.

The failure of our community to prepare, and the FACT that our local electric provider is way behind in their remediation efforts, (Conectiv, which is also Rick Cowles utility), will lead to greater social unrest and panic the banks are paying to avoid.

I have no answers to the problem accept to help individuals prepare. I do feel the label of the 'y2k pastor'. It is used in a good sense but also in a bad sense. I really don't like being labeled this because I want to be known as first and foremost, a man of the gospel of Jesus Christ. But I guess Joseph got labeled as the 'grain man' and Noah as the 'boat man', and Jesus as 'the prophet of doom' when He kept telling the Jews that their city and temple were going down.

So I will be the millennium man, but like the saying goes..."they won't prepare but they will remember." I expect beaucoup people at my door post y2k. Unless God grants me 'fish and loaves' power, our two year supply will end up a two week supply. Yes, we plan to help all we can even if it means we end up with nothing. (What a way to go.) Our other option is to leave for higher ground.

Bottomline....America is not ready for y2k, and it won't be. The church has once again failed, IMHO. Find yourself a little band you can belong to and hold on tight, the storm will test our foundation...is it sand or rock?

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), July 19, 1999.


Greetings Mike & Dinty,

Welcome aboard to the clueless church scene. Our pastor has allowed me to present a 4 part/10 minute outline on Y2K this April. It hasn't been mentioned since. Our pastor has taken the wait and see stance and given absolutely no direction to the church as to preparation. Most of the people are DGI's; our IT guy who is an autocad instructor and quite intelligent is telling everyone that it's overblown and not to worry. When I stated from the pulpit at Sunday School that anyone who says y2k is not a problem simply hasn't researched the problem, this guy came unglued. You see, he is the official "expert" at our church and I stepped into this turf area.

Much dissention has arisen. I will not attempt to usurp the authority of my pastor by pressing the issue. We have had no seminars and none are scheduled. I'm thoroughly discouraged at times.

My mom had some words of wisdom I'll pass on here. She said "You've made the point, presented lots of information, stressed the urgency, now shut up." I'm following Ed, any further horn blowing is just preaching to the choir. The folks will remember what you say. If it is a minor problem, you are an alarmist. If it's a disaster, these DGI's may show up at your door asking for help. It's a tough thing to figure out to do.

May God have mercy on us.

-- trafficjam (judgementday@ahead.soon), July 19, 1999.


Our pastor has prepared us, and the church is preparing to help the membership that is unable to prepare as well as the general public. Our pastor said, "Hey, if y2k turns out to be a non-event, look how much we will have to give to the poor." Blessings to all. Lori

-- Lori (ABaby72@aol.com), July 19, 1999.

BB -- if you're married, in your decision to feed any and all strangers at your door, hope you have thoroughly considered your responsibility toward your wife and children. If you're single, this issue doesn't apply.

As I recall, specific mention was made of the foolish virgins. (Matt. 25)

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), July 19, 1999.



AD2K by Lutheran Church

http://www.concentric.net/~Kasabach/ad2k/index.shtml

Our church is preparing for Y2K as well as other potential disasters. We are working with the local Red Cross to set up the church facility as a Disaster Shelter.

I believe the reason that churches are moving slowly is due to the broad spectrum of church members' understanding and position on Y2K, I find this to be a very divisive issue. As more people get involved, it should become easier to prepare as a congregation.

I am using the Red Cross, Ohio Emergency Management Agency, and Lutheran Disaster Response as authorities to at least get others to recogize the need for and to begin preparing - even if only for a two week disruption - which is better than no preparation at all. As people show interest they are given the URLs or printouts which point to this and other sources advocating a more thorough preparation for Y2K. In the final analysis, each individual/family must make their own decisions on what the appropriate level of preparation is.

BTW, in conversations with OEMA-Director of Emergency Preparedness there is a distinct increase in the level of preparation being advocated. Started at 3 day BITR - now advocating 2 weeks, with caveat that recommendation could increase as new info comes available. OEMA requested that we advocate, as a first priority, a postion that avoids a bank run. Given a severe bank run prior to Y2K, I expect OEMA to raise their level of preparation activity. Our next meeting of Volunteers Active in Disaster is at the Ohio OEMA "bunker" in Columbus.

-- Bill P (porterwn@one.net), July 19, 1999.


There are four problems for the christian to avoid:
     Fear
     Failure to plan
     Self-centered planning
     Trusting those plans instead of God.



-- walt (walt@lcs.k12.ne.us), July 19, 1999.

Tom,

No,we don't have children. We will also not feed any one who comes to our door. We plan to help widows and children. And then we will ask them to do something to help in some way. You are right, we cannot feed every one. And if I had children I definitely would make sure they were taken care of first.

Right now I have a friend who is looking to buy a trailer body for storage of grain, oats etc. We expect that will help quite a bit.

Hope that helps.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), July 19, 1999.


Considering how long it took the Vatican to admit that the Earth was round, this doesn't surprise me at all.

-- d (d@dgi.old), July 19, 1999.

BB,

How can they make you take the y2k info out of bulletins? What type of church is it? I thought Pastor had final say so on things like that. Hmmmmm.... But I do think your right...I think the church is ripe for some purging. We will see the chaff separated from the wheat. Wonder how many will continue on with their Christianity if their bellies are growling???? One of God's in America is self comfort!

-- Moore Dinty moore (not@thistime.com), July 19, 1999.



I too am a minister. I first spoke about Y2K last November, and the topic has been extremely difficult for all of us. About a third are doing at least some preps, about a third decided I should be medicated or straight-jacketed (altho these tend to be people who themselves normally are well-stocked), and about a third are clueless (and not preparing). After much turmoil, I basically shut up. I had given 2 Sunday talks in 6 months mentioning Y2K, but the reaction was as if I spoke of nothing else. I continue to hold monthly meetings with the few who are interested.

It became clear to me that people were not going to educate themselves or prepare in time - let alone take my word for it. I also realized that in a worst-case, they would expect me to provide for them in their distress. However, we have 5 grown children and some grandchildren. We are prepping for all members of our own family, since the families are young and financially-strapped. I do not want to be put in the position of having to turn away church members at the door to ensure the survival of my family.

Because they deny that Y2K is a problem, we decided to put our family first. We purchased a home in a rural area, are preparing that for the whole family, and that is where we will be during rollover, at least. I will return to my church community as often as gas and circumstances allow to provide prayer and presence, as we will keep our home here. But our supplies will be elsewhere.

Now, some are beginning to get nervous. They want to know more. Others are adamant about not wanting to hear a single word related to Y2k. My little community is a microcosm, and I see all the reactions, behaviors, emotions activated there. It is very distressing. Most will not prepare until it is too late. I cannot sacrifice my own children to save these competent adults who have made their choices. I will educate and assist in every way I can, but I feel when I look out on them on Sunday mornings that anguish that God must feel when He contemplates all human folly.

There is no high moral ground in this dilemma - only painful, wrenching choices.

-- (shepherd to@the.sheeple), July 20, 1999.


Good minister...good for you! I am so glad that you are preparing for your own family, since those you tried to save just have not wished to be helped. It reminds me of Noah...only his family got on the ark, even though people saw him building for so many years!

I, too, am trying to alert my church. I have posted on this forum on another thread a week or so ago about the frustration I have faced with the man who was made head of the Y2K Study Committee...only he never formed one, thinking his own Great Wisdom was an adequate foundation for informing the 1,000++ parishioners that they need not prepare, since nothing was going to happen after all! When my attempts to get my pastor to nudge this man into action failed, he advised me that I ought to contact him myself. And did I ever! Upon learning that I had put a couple of hundred hours of study into the subject on the Internet, and had read several books, he then replied with a verbal smirk, "Then you are committee enough for me," and TOLD me I was not on it with him! The only reason I allowed this smug smart aleck to draw me into it was my urgent desire to help these people whom I have come to love (I still have the minister's-wife heart sans the minister!)

Since then we have had e-mail verbal warfare over many weeks. Each time he sent me a proposed draft of his "report" to the pastor, I would seethe inside, as he portrayed preparers as being alarmist survivalists who would EVEN resort to guns to defend themselves! And who were so "overexcited" that they were preparing supplies for longer than a couple of days' winter storm. Yes, and just imagine that they do not TRUST the government to tell them the truth?! Horrors! In his final report, to be issued to the congregation via a newsletter, he maintained that stance with such animosity towards preparers, and attributed to me his version of my scenario. He believes that "social anxiety through anticipation of problems..." is the worst thing that could happen to our people. The crux of his belief system seems to be a mindset that is so subdued to accept authority figures as being the Good Father that, in his words, "Too much is at stake throughout soicety for important systems to fail, and we can largely believe the government agency information technology managers on such an important matter as this. We also believe that our society is more adaptive than the pessimists believe..." He even told our Vestry last week what he'd already had me contend against: "If things really should happen at Y2K, then those who have prepared can help those who did not with their supplies." This one had me apoplectic, and I answered it there and then, lest there be any mistake. Like you, I have children and grandchildren, and there is a need there I can't even meet!

When I fought his version going into the newsletter, in which he incorrectly and arrogantly portrayed my views inaccurately and unfairly, my pastor did not wish to censor it. However, my reply to the author stated what I would not wish said. And then (there is an all-knowing God!) the article had to be shortened by 1/3, and he left out most, not all, of the obnoxious stuff.

Happily, on Sunday after service, a Vestry member I'd never before spoken with came up to me and hugged me warmly, saying, "I want to thank you so much for what you did at the Vestry. I wanted to write you an e-mail. I want to thank you so much! We are so far behind, and there is so much to do, but we are starting."

Whatever scenario they prepare for, or instruct the parishioners to prepare for, it will be more than what this chairman of the non-existent committee suggested. By the way...he is now up from "a few days" to "three weeks" of preparations for his wife and child. So, perhaps by year's end he will have decided....no, that's too much to ask!

Keep the faith. Keep on keeping on for your own loved ones. And pray for the hard-headed who won't follow their shepherd, and the obtuse or otherwise unwilling DWGIs, and for the simple and the uninformed. Some people do not have access to the Internet, or even TVs I've discovered, and they rely upon their trusted church for information.

For me it is great to be able to SAY these things on this forum, and to know there is someone out there who HEARS me and understands! It is cathartic, because otherwise this is a lonely path, isn't it? certainly not getting much from the media.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), July 20, 1999.


To correct two bloopers in my post: 1) I put in an extra "not." It should read not that he did not want me on the committee, but that he did, though initially I did not wish to work with him. 2) The end got mixed up, with a sentence "jumping" from the next to the last paragraph to the end. I hit some key or other. Sorry....

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), July 20, 1999.

Excellent subject. I have to echo the struggles and frustrations that you all are experiencing in trying to awaken the church to not only Y2K but that which Y2K will usher in. I'm afraid this privileged generation of Americans are going to experience dirt grinding poverty, want and famine as well as nuclear war instead of the rewards of their investments and retirement programs and the never ending good life.

God began showing me these things in prophetic dreams and visions begining in 1991 when I became a Christian. God showed me that most people will not prepare and won't be ready when the time comes to roll over Clinton's Bridge to the next millineum (Remember Clinton's last election claims about being the best man to take the nation over that bridge?). In 1994, God showed me that panic. God showed me the train filled with people as it rolls right over the cliff where the bridge was supposed to be. This was about 3 years before I found out about Y2K and 2 years before Clinton began to claim (boast) in his re- election bid that he was the man to lead this nation over that bridge.

Then His Majesty, our Lord Jesus, appeared to me in a dream (as He appeared to Joshua with His sword drawn and pointed upward) and commanded me to "Give (Him) the glory". A short time later, I was shown nuclear war coming to America via missiles launched by China from ships off the coast of California. I heard the terrible roar and saw the mushroom cloud.

By the summer of '97 I began to pester my pastor with mountains of articles about Y2K urging him to read and take the issue to the congregation. The pastor did appoint a Y2K committee at my urging which for lack of interest boiled down to another brother and myself. To his credit, our pastor, whom I love, did give 1 Y2K sermon and recommended preparing for 1 month and never spoke about it since. I think he took a lot negative comments in private but I don't know that for sure. There is about a third that GI and another third of the brethren that DWGI and don't want to hear about Y2K anymore and another third that don't know, don't care and aren't worried.

Follow the money.

I strongly suspect that the main reason churches want to discourage saints making preparations is because it will effect tithes and offerings and the bottom line. Cynical? Yeah. The concern that the church bills won't get paid. I never heard it mentioned but I know that this "fear/concern" is there. I know that this is quite a cynical charge. Lord have mercy on all of us for we are all repugnant and have fallen short.

We have recently begun a "food pantry" program although we are getting zero support and co-operation from the church leadership.

I love my brothers and sisters in the Lord and wanted to help them prepare but are prevented from doing so within the structure of the church as Y2K is simply not on the radar screen of concerns among those in leadership and they would rather receive the government spin than receive the prophet in their own midst.

Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets".

Ephesians 4:11 "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers."

ICorinthians 12:28 "...And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, ..."

S. David Bays Prophet of the Lord

-- S. David Bays (sdbays@intplus.com), July 21, 1999.


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