Very sad developement for this family which is seemingly plagued with tragedy. Unfortunately this will probably give way to a torrent of media coverage akin to the Diana phenomena. Sorry folks but the world is to dangerous to worry about a magazine editor and his wife. Sadder still is the crisis facing us. But mark my words, wall to wall coverage of the "unfolding story" blah. blah blah....

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999

Answers

We posted at the same time Gordon. Sorry.

:(

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), July 17, 1999.

Gordon-How sad that you think of this news only in relation to what it detracts from other news. He is a person who has very rarely courted the press, even though they dog him day in day out. He sought to add some thoughtful discouse in this country, rather than take the easy road to political success. He conducted himself with grace and good manners. I think this is a terrible loss of a good person.

-- Gia (Laureltree7@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

Never said it wasn't sad. BUT WAKE UP, a lot of people are gonna die. This plane crash while tragic is gonna take up media space for the next two weeks. That space could be used to save lives. This type of "share the tragedy crap" is what got us defoccussed from important issues in the first place. Is it sad? Yes. Is it tragic? Yes. I wish to extend my condolences to the family.

Now, were you aware

1. That the Chinese announced that they had achieved neutron bomb capabilities this week after encountering resistance from Taiwan. 2. India and Pakistan are currently engaged in a bitter border war after successfully testing nuclear weapons earlier this year. 3. The chief economist for the largest bank in the world sees a 1920s style depression in our near future?

WAKE UP.

Americans have become illiterate, Oprah watching, Columbine mourning, Princess Di Candle In the Wind flickering, stock market cheering, idiots. Stop watching the flotsam before you become a part of it!

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

It's 12:30 p.m. EST, and CBS, NBC, ABC are STILL providing nonstop coverage since early this morning. I realize that the man was very powerful and has respect, but this is getting riduculous here.

If it was my brother's plane that went down, you think he would have had this coverage?

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), July 17, 1999.

Hey Gordo,

did you realize that :

A.) the fucking war in Kashmir is OVER!

Oh yeah, good news around here has a way of slipping through the cracks and all you ever hear about on TB2000 is the very worst of the worst. Doommers reign supreme. Jerks

-- (doomers@suck.com), July 17, 1999.

Yeah, you're right there suck.com boy, the Indians and Pakis are probably best of buddies by now.

You live in a very safe little world made of your own tidy little delusions of security. They won't do you much good I'm afraid. Best of luck to you and yours in the new year.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

Gordon and Tim -

Were either of you alive and aware when the Kennedys were assassinated? Just curious. I think that those of us "old" folks that were around when those events occurred and old enough at that time to sense the mood of change that went through this country will probably have a greatly differing view of this event. And I don't think that politics per se will have anything to do with the reactions.

And Gordon, if all the other crap that is floating around makes the news, but not the seriousness of Y2K, this happening is not changing that - Y2k would not have been in the news anyway so this is not affecting Y2K news in the least...

-- Valkyrie (anon@please.net), July 17, 1999.

You ever wonder why Y2K isn't making headlines? Maybe, because... there is nothing to report?

So simple it's almost genius.

Now go load up on doomer flames and cut me up, it's all your good for.

-- (doomers@suck.com), July 17, 1999.

Gordon- I have woken up, that's why I'm here. Yes I am aware of just about any political situation you could name. Can I change the fact that people are going to die, or reverse a tragedy by wishing it was not so? No. Of course the international mindset is delusional now. It did not happen overnight, and one has to wonder if anything could change that,before tragedy strikes. I think I know why you're angry. I'm angry too. I does not mean however, that I have lost my compassion.

-- Gia (Laureltree7@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

I'm not suggesting that you or anyone should lose their compassion. As I said before, it is a tragedy. Very sad.

Please explain to me why I should be dispraportionatly disturbed by the death of JFK Jr. as opposed to the deaths of 3 young boys in Bellingham Wa? They burned to death along a quiet creek in a city park? Or the thousands who die each year from drunk drivers? Or the thousands massacred in African countries while we stand by? Or the 10,000 that we killed (including civilian women and children) in Kosovo?

These stories didn't get a tenth of the press that this one will. Were their lives less valuable than JFK Jr.'s?

The answer should be no.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

Valkyrie -

I was born in 1963, so I was too young to really experience those years as an adult. From what I've read and heard from others, I missed out on a special era, so I must admit that I lack wisdom regarding the historical impact/implications.

However, JFK JR. is not a God. If it was a war breaking out or a national emergency issue, I can see having the big three having non- stop coverage for several hours. My post was around 12:30 There are more pressing issues at play in the world at present compared to this crash, but such issues probably won't be covered with the same enthusiam and depth. As a nation, we'd rather know what color shirt JFK Jr. wore in the crash vs. something with substance. Television is puff and fluff, and other nice stuff. news that you can use. News you want to hear. LIVE!

I apologize for the rant, folks. See what happens when they pre-empt cartoons? ;-)

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), July 17, 1999.

The Clinton machine spin hits full fluff cycle. ABC just carried a Pentagon Briefing! Ahggrrrhh!

What about our nuclear secrets? Y2K? Korean war, Indo-Pak war, Osama Bin Laden? God help us.

America America God shed his spin on thee

Home of the free and the dumb.

I feel your pain. I feel your pain. I feel your pain.

Ignore your peril. Ignore your peril. Ignore my crimes.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

Her luggage found in water, rumor.

-- sad drama (plane fell@of.sky), July 17, 1999.

Gordon- Have not said you should feel anything. I just think he was a human being and deserving of some respect. Is coverage disproportionate? Maybe. But frankly, I'm more offended at having to look at that scumball Raphael Resendez Ramirez on the news every night. The children have not been forgotten. The world sucks sometimes.

-- Gia (Laureltree7@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

"Lauren Besette" nametag on luggage washed up on shore, they're dead. 30 years exactly. Weird. Add superstition and curses, revenge to Millennium Madness.

-- plane fell (out@of.sky), July 17, 1999.

30 years to the day that a drunk man killed their daughter! From Reuters: In that infamous episode, the senator left a party with a young aide named Mary Jo Kopechne in his Oldsmobile and accidentally drove off a small wooden bridge on Chappaquidick Island, next to Martha's Vineyard.

Kennedy survived but Kopechne drowned. The circumstances of the episode have never fully been clarified, although Kennedy waited eight hours before calling police.

More recently, Michael Kennedy, a son of Robert Kennedy, was killed in a skiing accident on New Year's Eve 1997 at the age of 39. His death followed a year of sordid scandal, when it was revealed Michael Kennedy had had an affair with a teenage babysitter.

Michael's brother David died in a hotel room in 1984 of a heroin overdose at 28.

And in 1991, cousin William Kennedy Smith was put on trial for allegedly raping a woman at the Kennedy compound in Palm Beach, Florida. He was acquitted after a much-publicized trial --------------------------------------------------- That being said, the older Kennedy's were somewhat more honorable. But I think the case can be made that JFK was killed after he renegged on a deal made by his dad ( a known bootlegger) with the mob. Read Bill Bonnano's account (this is not a big secret). And Bobby knew it. That's why he was whacked.

Wake up out there. It's not a nice world.

JFK Jr. is a great cause celebre because he was a decent guy. Seemed to be pretty normal and nice guy amoungst a crew like the Kennedy's really stands out.

-- Jim Smith (cyberax@ix.netcom.com), July 17, 1999.

So much for Camelot... :-(

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), July 17, 1999.

CBS showing Camelot archival footage. O how the world has changed. It's a recap before TEOTWAWKI. Sad. Goodbye era.

-- watched in 60s (horses@footfalls.sound), July 17, 1999.

Coast Guard: "We have located wreckage."

-- deep cold water (ocean@vineyard.south), July 17, 1999.

JFK Jr. was wearing a leg cast while piloting.

-- risky (business@night.fog), July 17, 1999.

It's official now, Coast Guard confirming, plane crashed into ocean, no survivors, yellow ribbons going up on Martha's vineyard, reporters crying.

-- tears (mourning@lost.opportunity), July 17, 1999.

JFK Jr. had only 100 hours of flight time.

He had just traded up to a larger plane two weeks earlier.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 17, 1999.

30 years to the weekend, after the Chappaquiddic incident, John Jr follows in the footsteps of his Uncle and gets in a vehicle and drowns some women.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), July 17, 1999.

Why don't you just save some time and go to Hell right now, Milne?

-- Ponder (this@night.com), July 17, 1999.

Really, Paul, you lower your credibility when you're such a bastard.

-- lurker (foo@bar.it), July 17, 1999.

30 years to the weekend, after the Chappaquiddic incident, John Jr follows in the footsteps of his Uncle and gets in a vehicle and drowns some women.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), July 17, 1999.

*************************

Paul, You are pathetic. John Jr. with his wife and her sister going to a wedding in no way compares to "The senator" drove off of the bridge with the girl. The odd thing I dee here is no one seems to know what the senators first name is, even though he is still in office. Am I the only one that knows his name?

They need to fill in Saturday morning with something to grab an audience, but as usual they over do it. But does anyone honestly think the cartoons would have been replaced with info on Y2K instead?

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), July 17, 1999.

Milne- You are scum!

-- CD (not@here.com), July 17, 1999.

Lest we forget, it took Senator Ted EIGHT hours to call the police after he drove off the bridge.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 17, 1999.

Cherri;

>The odd thing I dee here is no one seems to know what the senators first name is, even though he is still in office. Am I the only one that knows his name? <

No.

Edward Moore

S.O.B.

-- sweetolebob (buffgun@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

Milne you disappoint me. I thought you would have been on ealier to make sure that someone made a negative comment. But you came through in the end and I hope hell has a special pig farm for you. You certainly deserve it.

-- Pauls pig bacon (paulmilneisabiggermoron@thangarynorth.com), July 17, 1999.

It is a very sad day indeed. And you know what makes it even sadder is that Gordon and people like Gordon don't even understand why.

Yes Gordon, those little boys who died are just as important and precious. That's not the point.

-- lucy2k (lucy2k@home.com), July 17, 1999.

July 17th. The exact day TWA 800 went down.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), July 17, 1999.

Listen Paul, this is coming from a "9" GI, GI'ed in late 97, usaually agree with you...

You are a heartless, fucking bastard.

Go straight to hell, you commie pig.

-- Fuck You (Fuck@you.milne), July 17, 1999.

"Sadder still is the crisis facing us." Gordon, spoken like a true self-centered jerk.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), July 17, 1999.

Its funny Gilda that when my Uncle lost his life in a plane crash CNN was not knocking at my front door. People die everyday of the year, Gordon's point is well thought out IMHO.

-- SgtSchultz (SgtHansSchultz@stalag13.com), July 17, 1999.

Well in a roundabout way Milne proved a point I've been making. You doomers have no sense of humor... none! It's no wonder you drive yourself crazy with thoughts of the end of the world. I believe that you sit in bad at night thinking about all the ways you could possibly die. Oh well, there isn't any new under the sun. One more Kennedy dies and life goes on.

B-o-o H-o-o

-- (doomers@suck.com), July 17, 1999.

Come on people ----- Paul Milne never wrote that post. This is just some polly spin to discredit him. Come on, be a little more intelligent than that!

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), July 17, 1999.

I posted this in the other thread - it bears repeating I think.

_____

For a tremedous analysis of instrument flying, and what is the terrible danger of relying on "feelings" rather than technical facts as you fly - look at the link in this site:

www.boortz.com

The writer is an instrument-qualified flyer - Kennedy was not, had had no business being aloft at that time, in those conditions of near twilight, in haze, over an ocean. I'm sorry he failed to understand his weakness, the family deserved no other losses.

I'm sorry too for the young bride who lost her familiy and friends on what should have been her most important day, "her happiest day."

But he (Kennedy) did it to himself through overconfidence in his feelings, his desire to get someplace without taking precautions, and his "desire" to make it despite the technical and training procedures he had NOT finished yet. A simple technical problem - loss of ontrol of reference points because of poor visibility in the darkening haze - don't CARE what you want, the airplane will DO want you tell it.

Do the words: "it can't be that bad", "we don't want it to happen" and "they won't let it happen" remind anyone of a similar technical problem looming in the twilight haze?

The problem may not easily visible to the naked eye, but it is not still out there in the future nontheless?

The failure was his alone as a handicapped (leg was injured), untrained pilot carrying passengers I'm sure he cared deeply about, but who still carried them into danger without the proper training and certification. They trusted him with their lives, and he failed to justify their trust.

___

The second point to notice, as several have shown above, is the absolute crush of the media on this event. Learn from it what they (the media) feel, how they cover something, WHO they cover, and how they cover something that dear to them.. The current media remain "locked" into the fabricated Camelot image they carry in their hearts from the early 60's. They elected Clinton (and Hillary) trying perhaps to duplicate it, and they kept him in power to maintain that image that they want.

It is this media who will control what news (and how it is reported) next January and February.

-- Robert A Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), July 17, 1999.

thinkIcan,

Check over at Comp-Software Year 2000. You will find the original post matching the one here plus followup commentary.

-- Ponder (this@night.com), July 17, 1999.

Sorry to burst your bubble "thinkIcan". Take a look over on csy2k. He's vomiting the same BS over there too.

-- CD (not@here.com), July 17, 1999.

Thanks guys---------I take it back, but I still find the statement hard to believe. Guess what,--- I've been wrong before, --- it looks like I was wrong on this one too. Hope I'm wrong on this y2k thing, I've got two years of food. Sure would like to give it to the needy, if its just a three day snow storm LOL.

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), July 17, 1999.

Apparantly he had no business flying that plane. He was in a cast a few weeks before and had only begun recently walking with a cane. No copilot. No common sense.

It is a tragedy. Those girls trusted someone with their lives. They made a bad decision. He may have been a good guy, in fact I think based on the interviews I've heard, a great guy. However he made a critical error in judgment and it cost him his life and the lives of two innocents. His uncle made a similarly bad decision 30 years ago and it cost a young woman her life. Granted they are somewhat different, in that Jr. was a good guy and Ted's a real shit, but the fact remains that they'd be alive today if he hadn't been so overly confident in his abilities.

And as far as the relevancy to Y2K, the parallels are enormous. Screw up in a combat situation and you die. It's that simple.

If thshtf this January I'll bet none of you sobbing idiots will be reading people magazine when a load of gansters shows up in your quiet suburban neighborhood and Joe policeman is nowhere around to be found.

I also find it extremely sad that as a society we think JFK's life was somehow more important than other lives. That's ludicrous. It cheapens human life. Just cause you see him on TV? Because his dad was president?

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

One more Kenneday kicks the bucket, big deal. You people see the letters JFK and you automatically think the guy was a saint of some kind. But hey, you didn't know him, maybe he got what was coming. Maybe JFK senior did too. I'm sure lots of you would love to see Saddam Hussein assassinated but when it comes to an American... oh golly gee, no way, that's just plain horrible , petuey! yuck! How can you say such a thing!! Oh yeah I forgot, The kennedys are famous for their amazing contributions to the world. Ted "The Philanderer", John "The Junkie", and of course all the great scandals that follow their family around.

Maybe there really is justice in this world. And maybe you doomers are digging your graves every time you try to convert some "DGI" into your scared, apocalyptic little cult. Get a grip, life is hard and then you die. Wishing for TEOTWAWKI won't help you get out of debt and become a better person. Stop waiting for "some big thing" to intercede and change your life for you already. If you don't like the modern world then get on a slow boat to China and start a rice paddy. No one will stop you, it's what you want right?! So what is stopping you... get a jump on the New Year, become a caveperson now and avoid the rush.

-- (doomers@suck.com), July 17, 1999.

You wrote:

"Yes Gordon, those little boys who died are just as important and precious. That's not the point. "

When they found the one little boy, his last words were "Don't tell my Mom, I don't want her to worry". They couldn't touch his body to help him, cause it was to hot. He burned alive. He was killed by a mistake.

Gone; because some asshole like you was feeling their feelings instead of doing their fucking job correctly. My point here is that we need to focus real hard on living. If you screw up in the next few months, there WILL be consequences. Most people don't understand that because we've given up our moral compass and exchanged it for a remote control with which we watch and feel the pain of others. Slick Willie sold our country for an election, practically raped a woman in the whitehouse, cheated on his wife multiple times, lied under oath, lied to the American people and NOTHING HAPPENED!

We have become morally bankrupt. Your president is a rapist and a traitor. How does that happen? It happens because dopes like yourself can't think anymore. You've lost the ability to reason. You've completely dissociated to the point where you think JFK is a real part of your life. He's not, he wasn't and he never will be. You live in bumfuck, not Camelot. Opiates for the masses. Keep smoking. I'll keep prepping.

-- Jim Smith (cyberax@ix.netcom.com), July 17, 1999.

Robert- Gordon- Since you've already been able to determine the cause of the crash was pilot error, maybe you should inform the authorities so they can call off the search. They haven't even found the aircraft yet, let alone ruled out mechanical failure. You may ultimately be proven correct but don't you think it's a bit premature to start branding him with..."They trusted him with their lives, and he failed to justify their trust."

-- CD (not@here.com), July 17, 1999.

You must be retarded.

Want some facts?: From the Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- srv/national/longterm/jfkjr/stories/crash071899.htm

The greatest safety problem in general aviation is with what is labled "personal" flights such as Kennedy's, as opposed to business or instructional flights. Although 41.8 percent of general aviation flight hours are listed as personal, they account for 63.9 percent of all accidents and 66.8 percent of all fatal accidents.

Kennedy was flying under what is called "visual flight rules," meaning that he filed no flight plan and navigated on his own, guided by radio beacons or possibly by Global Positioning Satellite.

Bailey said he had seen Kennedy take the flight many times, and he usually took a flight instructor with him when the weather was "iffy." There apparently was no flight instructor aboard Friday night.

Kennedy's exact number of hours in the air, the usual gauge of experience, could not be learned for certain. But Kennedy was clearly what aviators call a "low-time" pilot. Sources said he had flown a little more than 100 hours, an experience level that has proved to be one of the most dangerous periods for new pilots because they have enough knowledge to fly but lack the experience of more seasoned pilots.

However, Kyle Bailey, another pilot who was considering a trip to Martha's Vineyard Friday night, said he decided against the trip because of the haze.

"The weather was very marginal, four to five miles visibility, extremely hazy," Bailey said. "Over open water, you have reduced visibility anyway. With the haze, in the dark, you lose sight of the horizon. You don't have landmarks."

And I've heard he was walking with a freaking cast. Now take all that in for a moment. A relatively new pilot upgrades his plane with few hours under his belt, takes off in the dark on a VFR trip, under hazy conditions and handicapped physically with no copilot? That sounds pretty godamn dumb to me.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

Re-read my post Gordon. Read slowly and try your very best to comprehend what is written.

-- CD (not@here.com), July 17, 1999.

I understand your caution in not assuming a fatal crash, but sorry, but now, after 24 hours and a surface search, and with bags and some debris sighted, I can see little hope for survival of all three.

Perhaps if they had been able to glide in, to make a controlled ditch like that Senator whose propeller "fell of" - there'd be room for your hope. But the plane would have to have hit and remained intact to have a relealistic chance for passenger survivial.

-- Robert A Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), July 17, 1999.

Robert- Not sure if your comment was directed to me. If so, I think you misunderstood what I had written. I have no doubt that this was a fatal crash.

-- CD (not@here.com), July 17, 1999.

"If thshtf this January I'll bet none of you sobbing idiots will be reading people magazine when a load of gansters shows up in your quiet suburban neighborhood and Joe policeman is nowhere around to be found."

Hey Gordon Gecko, there's no need to insult everyone when you post, (although I do seem to vaguely remember doing that to everyone when I started posting too.) Chill out, we're mostly harmless.

-- number six (Iam_not_a_number@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.

Perhaps someone could help me with this. Didn't JFK Jr. have to pass a pilot's test?? Didn't it include proficiency with an ARTIFICIAL HORIZON?? I only had TWO lessons, but I was taught to keep a plane on course and at altitude with the Altimiter, Compass (gyro and magnetic), Airspeed indicator and said ARTIFICIAL Horizon, without reference to landmarks.

My instructor INSISTED we practice that. He said that in Syracuse, where Lake effect weather could blow in at a moment's notice, that I might HAVE to rely on at least rudamentary instrument skills just to survive. Just because Visual Flight Rules apply at takeoff has NOTHING to do with sudden cloud banks blowing off Lake Ontario in the Summer. We practiced an instrument drill on both lessons.

Didn't JFK Jr. have that basic skill??? Is it taught in pilot school anymore?

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@It's ALL going away in January.com), July 17, 1999.

He had his leg in a cast. Guess that meant he couldn't push the clutch to shift gears. He was flying... not driving a car.

Lack of experience and lack of respect for being in the air AND new ultra light experimental aircraft are causing small craft crashes in unacceptably increasing numbers. John Denver, JFK Jr. are just the ones that hit the national news. There were two crashes in my area in two days this past week. Has the FAA allowed flight standards to be lowered to a dangerous leval? Or is the FAA itself in need of a BIG overhaul? Can you say C-O-R-R-U-P-T?

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), July 17, 1999.

This has become a very nasty thread.

Too bad.

:(

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), July 17, 1999.

Cherri - read again the excellent analysis in www.boortz.com

It will explain why and how people who trust their feellings while flying in instruments can lose control in less than 1 minute after hitting a cloud or haze - as this appears to be.

Also - the leg may be significant - if the plane needs urgent correction, it MUST be done with a compbination of stick (control wheel) (which requires both hands) and the rudder (on the tail - which is controlled by the two foot pedals - emergency recovery (steering) requires BOTH feet be moved in coordination with the hands.

One leg in the cast disrupts this coordination, if not making it impossible. Even if it were possible, one leg in a cast slows reactions, reduced the force available on the foot pedals, and makes recovery (if the plane is spinning or twisting - as may be the case) much more difficult.

In other words - if he got in trouble with his leg in perfect shape, and if visiblility were good enough to clearly see the horizon once he recovered, he might have been able to recover control and save his life.

-- Robert A Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), July 17, 1999.

Thanks for the reminder about the leg cast. I was assuming that he lost reference to the horizon and that led to the crash. Actually, the more likely is what was just mentioned...the leg cast preventing emergency manoeuvers to recover control of the aircraft.

Thanks again.

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@It's ALL going away in January.com), July 18, 1999.

Chappaquiddick, you say? Try this one on for size.

http://www.ratical.com/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html

The second clue is Chappaquiddick. A careful examination of the real evidence in this event shows that Ted Kennedy was framed in the killing of Mary Joe Kopechne and then his life and his children's lives threatened if he ever told the truth about what happened. The facts in the case and the conclusions that can be drawn from them are contained in a book by Boston researcher Robert Cutler.[2]

The third clue is Ted's withdrawal from the presidential race in November 1975. It is a fact that all of his and Robert's children were being protected by the Secret Service for five days in November 1975. A threat had been made against the children's lives unless he officially announced his withdrawal. He made the announcement and has stuck to it ever since. The Secret Service protection ended the day after he made the announcement.

It does not seem likely that Senator Kennedy would withdraw from the race because of a threat from a lone nut or from some obscure group. He remembers the 1965 threat and Chappaquiddick very well. He knows about the Power Control Group and he knows their enormous capability. He knows what they did to his brothers. He has no choice but to hope that somehow, sometime, the Group will be exposed. But he dares not let them believe he would ever have anything to do with it. Publicly he will always have to support the Warren Commission and continue to state that he will not run for president. Privately he is forced to ask his closest friends and his relatives not to get involved with new investigations, and to help protect his children. Some of them know the truth. Others do not, and are puzzled by his behavior. They go along with it under the assumption that he has good and sufficient reasons not to open the can of worms represented by the conspiracies in his brother's deaths.

The Power Control Group faced up to the Ted Kennedy and Kennedy family problem very early. They used the threat against the Kennedy children's lives very effectively between 1963 and 1968 to silence Bobby and the rest of the family and friends who knew the truth. It was necessary to assassinate Bobby in 1968 because with the power of the presidency he could have prevented the Group from harming the children. When Teddy began making moves to run for president in 1969 for the 1972 election, the Group decided to put some real action behind their threats. Killing Teddy in 1969 would have been too much. They selected a new way of eliminating him as a candidate. They framed him with the death of a young girl, and threw sexual overtones in for good measure.

Here is what happened according to Cutler's analysis of the evidence. The Group hired several men and at least one woman to be at Chappaquiddick during the weekend of the yacht race and the planned party on the island. They ambushed Ted and Mary Jo after they left the cottage and knocked Ted out with blows to his head and body. They took the unconscious or semi-conscious Kennedy to Martha's Vineyard and deposited him in his hotel room. Another group took Mary Jo to the bridge in Ted's car, force fed her with a knock out potion of alcoholic beverage, placed her in the back seat, and caused the car to accelerate off the side of the bridge into the water. They broke the windows on one side of the car to insure the entry of water; then they watched the car until they were sure Mary Jo would not escape.

Mary Jo actually regained consciousness and pushed her way to the top of the car (which was actually the bottom of the car -- it had landed on its roof) and died from asphyxiation. The group with Teddy revived him early in the morning and let him know he had a problem. Possibly they told him that Mary Jo had been kidnapped. They told him his children would be killed if he told anyone what had happened and that he would hear from them. On Chappaquiddick, the other group made contact with Markham and Gargan, Ted's cousin and lawyer. They told both men that Mary Jo was at the bottom of the river and that Ted would have to make up a story about it, not revealing the existence of the group. One of the men resembled Ted and his voice sounded something like Ted's. Markham and Gargan were instructed to go the the Vineyard on the morning ferry, tell Ted where Mary Jo was, and come back to the island to wait for a phone call at a pay station near the ferry on the Chappaquiddick side.

The two men did as they were told and Ted found out what had happened to Mary Jo that morning. The three men returned to the pay phone and received their instructions to concoct a story about the "accident" and to report it to the police. The threat against Ted's children was repeated at that time.

Ted, Markham and Gargan went right away to police chief Arena's office on the Vineyard where Ted reported the so-called "accident." Almost at the same time scuba diver John Farror was pulling Mary Jo out of the water, since two boys who had gone fishing earlier that morning had spotted the car and reported it.

Ted called together a small coterie of friends and advisors including family lawyer Burke Marshall, Robert MacNamara, Ted Sorenson, and others. They met on Squaw Island near the Kennedy compound at Hyannisport for three days. At the end of that time they had manufactured the story which Ted told on TV, and later at the inquest. Bob Cutler calls the story, "the shroud." Even the most cursory examination of the story shows it was full of holes and an impossible explanation of what happened. Ted's claim that he made the wrong turn down the dirt road toward the bridge by mistake is an obvious lie. His claim that he swam the channel back to Martha's Vineyard is not believable. His description of how he got out of the car under water and then dove down to try to rescue Mary Jo is impossible. Markham and Gargan's claims that they kept diving after Mary Jo are also unbelievable.

The evidence for the Cutler scenario is substantial. It begins with the marks on the bridge and the position of the car in the water. The marks show that the car was standing still on the bridge and then accelerated off the edge, moving at a much higher speed than Kennedy claimed. The distance the car travelled in the air also confirms this. The damage to the car on two sides and on top plus the damage to the windshield and the rear view mirror stanchion [3] prove that some of the damage had to have been inflicted before the car left the bridge.

The blood on the back and on the sleeves of Mary Jo's blouse proves that a wound was inflicted before she left the bridge.[4] The alcohol in her bloodstream proves she was drugged, since all witnesses testified she never drank and did not drink that night. The fact that she was in the back seat when her body was recovered indicates that is where she was when the car hit the water. There was no way she could have dived downward against the inrushing water and moved from the front to the back seat underneath the upside-down seat back.

The wounds on the back of Ted Kennedy's skull, those just above his ear and the large bump on the top indicate he was knocked out. His actions at the hotel the next morning show he was not aware of Mary Jo's death until Markham and Gargan arrived. The trip to the pay phone on Chappaquiddick can only be explained by his receiving a call there, not making one. There were plenty of pay phones in or near Ted's hotel if he needed to make a private call. The tides in the channel and the direction in which Ted claimed he swam do not match. In addition it would have been a superhuman feat to have made it across the channel (as proven by several professionals who subsequently tried it).

Deputy Sheriff Christopher Look's testimony, coupled with the testimony of Ray LaRosa and two Lyons girls, proves that there were two people in Ted's car with Mary Jo at 12:45 PM. The three party members walking along the road south toward the cottage confirmed the time that Mr. Look drove by. He stopped to ask if they needed a ride. Look says that just prior to that he encountered Ted's car parked facing north at the juncture of the main road and the dirt road. It was on a short extension of the north-south section of the road junction to the north of the "T". He says he saw a man driving, a woman in the seat beside him, and what he thought was another woman lying on the back seat. He remembered a portion of the license plate which matched Ted's car, as did the description of the car. Markham, Gargan and Ted's driver's testimony show that someone they talked to in the pitch black night sounded like Ted and was about his height and build.

None of the above evidence was ever explained by Ted or by anyone else at the inquest or at the hearing on the case demanded by district attorney Edward Dinis. No autopsy was ever allowed on Mary Jo's body (her family objected), and Ted made it possible to fly her body home for burial rather quickly. Kennedy haters have seized upon Chappaquiddick to enlarge the sexual image now being promoted of both Ted and Jack Kennedy. Books like "Teddy Bare" take full advantage of the situation.

Just which operatives in the Power Control Group at the high levels or the lower levels were on Chappaquiddick Island? No definite evidence has surfaced as yet, except for an indication that there was at least one woman and at least three men, one of whom resembled Ted Kennedy and who sounded like him in the darkness. However, two pieces of testimony in the Watergate hearings provide significant clues as to which of the known JFK case conspirators may have been there.

E. Howard Hunt told of a strange trip to Hyannisport to see a local citizen there about the Chappaquiddick incident. Hunt's cover story on this trip was that he was digging up dirt on Ted Kennedy for use in the 1972 campaign. The story does not make much sense if one questions why Hunt would have to wear a disguise, including his famous red wig, and to use a voice-alteration device to make himself sound like someone else. If, on the other hand, Hunt's purpose was to return to the scene of his crime just to make sure that no one who might have seen his group at the bridge or elsewhere would talk, then the disguise and the voice box make sense.

The other important testimony came from Tony Ulasewicz who said he was ordered by the Plumbers to fly immediately to Chappaquiddick and dig up dirt on Ted. The only problem Tony has is that, according to his testimony, he arrived early on the morning of the "accident", before the whole incident had been made public. Ulasewicz is the right height and weight to resemble Kennedy and with a CIA voice- alteration device he presumably could be made to sound like him. There is a distinct possibility that Hunt and Tony were there when it happened.

The threats by the Power Control Group, the frame-up at Chappaquiddick, and the murders of Jack and Bobby Kennedy cannot have failed to take their toll on all of the Kennedys. Rose, Ted, Jackie, Ethel and the other close family members must be very tired of it all by now. They can certainly not be blamed for hoping it will all go away. Investigations like those proposed by Henry Gonzalez and Thomas Downing only raised the spectre of the powerful Control Group taking revenge by kidnapping some of the seventeen children.

It was no wonder that a close Kennedy friend and ally in California, Representative Burton, said that he would oppose the Downing and Gonzalez resolutions unless Ted Kennedy put his stamp of approval on them. While the sympathies of every decent American go out to them, the future of our country and the freedom of the people to control their own destiny through the election process mean more than the lives of all the Kennedys put together. If John Kennedy were alive today he would probably make the same statement.

John Dean summed it up when he said to Richard Nixon as recorded on the White House tapes in 1973: "If Teddy knew the bear trap he was walking into at Chappaquiddick. . . ."[5]

-- A regular (craving@privacy.see?), July 18, 1999.

Robert,

As I said Is the FAA allowing people to fly without the training and experience needed. Cute cockpit. I read;

*****

you have an attitude indicator, an altimeter, an airspeed indicator, a rate-of-climb indicator, a directional gyro and a turn indicator to check and cross-check constantly. Add to this your radios, navigation instruments and engine instruments and you find yourself very busy indeed. All the while your body will be telling you that what you see on those instruments just aint so. What are you going to believe? Your inner senses, or those instruments? What if the instruments are wrong?

*******

Why would anyone be allowed to fly if they could not believe their HSI, Altimiter, INS anbd other instruments? Are people being allowed to get licences on Visual flight rules only now? Or has this been common practice for a while?

as for the rudder, a cast should not make a difference unless it covered the knee and the knee was bent. mThe rudder is usually used to turn in and X-Y position, not to turn down while loosing altitude.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), July 18, 1999.

Hopes fade for missing Kennedy plane

Hopes Fade For Missing Kennedy Plane

Sunday, 18 July 1999 2:08 (GMT)

(NOTE: federal investigators dispatched) (UPI Focus)

AQUINNAH, Mass., July 17 (UPI) - After a daylong unsuccessful search for a missing single-engine plane piloted by John F. Kennedy Jr., the National Transportation Safety Board is launching an investigation into the aircraft's disappearance.

An official statement tonight says an NTSB team has been dispatched to Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts as the Coast Guard continues to coordinate "aggressive search-and-rescue activities."

As daylight faded, Air Force helicopters returned to Otis Air Force Base, to resume the search Sunday morning.

Hopes faded today as bits of debris from the Piper Saratoga were recovered and a piece of luggage was positively identified as belonging to Lauren Bessette, Kennedy's sister-in-law. Kennedy's wife, 33-year-old Carolyn Bessette, was also traveling with him.

The luggage, along with what appeared to be an airplane tire, washed up on Philbin Beach on Martha's Vineyard, and Lauren Bessette's name was on the tag of a black suitcase, said First District Coast Guard spokesman Lt. Gary Jones.

Jones said other debris - a head rest and carpeting that appeared to be from the plane - were found this afternoon floating in the water about 100 yards from nearby Gay Head Beach.

Kennedy and the Bessette sisters were traveling from Caldwell, New Jersey, to Hyannis Port for the wedding of Mark Bailey and Rory Kennedy, the last unmarried daughter of Ethel Kennedy and the late Sen. Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

The event was postponed, and what should have been a joyous gathering of the clan turned into a grim vigil as members of the Kennedy family waited anxiously at their storied oceanfront compound for word on the fate of the three.

An outdoor family mass was held, presided over by three Roman Catholic priests, as Mrs. Kennedy, other family members and around 275 guests gathered to pray.

Among those present were Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., former U.S. Rep. Joseph Kennedy, Rory's older brother and JFK Jr.'s cousin, and U.S. Housing Secretary Andrew Cuomo, who is married to Kerry Kennedy.

John Kennedy's older sister, Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg, was away on a rafting trip and had not planned to attend the wedding.

Sen. Kennedy's son, Rep. Patrick Kennedy, D-R.I., was also away in California and immediately flew back to Boston, according to media reports.

Family spokesman Brian O'Connor said the family was initially hopeful that the three would be found alive.

But he said the mood at the compound turned somber when debris, apparently from the plane, began washing up on the western end of Martha's Vineyard.

There was no immediate comment from any of the family members.

Before the effort was scaled back at sunset, Rear Adm. Richard M. Larrabee told journalists the Coast Guard was still in a search-and- rescue mode. But the dispatch of federal investigators suggests authorities are now presuming the plane has crashed.

Coast Guard cutters equipped with high-powered lights will continue to search the sea south of Martha's Vineyard throughout the night.

Earlier in the day, the Civil Air Patrol withdrew from the search 15 aircraft that were combing a 15-by-15-mile grid from Long Island to Martha's Vineyard after debris and luggage washed ashore on Philbin Beach.

Jones said the Coast Guard was notified about the missing plane at around 3 a.m. EDT, and the search started immediately.

About 15 Coast Guard and Air Force aircraft and some 150 personnel joined in the search.

Kennedy, a licensed private pilot, was expected to arrive at Martha's Vineyard Airport in Massachusetts in his Piper Saratoga II TC sometime before 10 p.m. Friday.

At 9:39 p.m. Friday, Kennedy radioed the airport and said he was 13 miles from the airport and 10 miles from the coast, according to WCVB-TV news in Boston. He reportedly said he was making his final approach.

Moments later, radar operated by the Federal Aviation Administration showed the plane went into a dive and dropped 1,200 feet in just 12 seconds, according to ABC News.

In his final approach message, WCVB-TV said Kennedy told controllers at the airport that he planned to drop off his wife's sister and then take off again between 11 p.m. and 11:30 p.m. for Hyannis Airport.

Kennedy's family then called Hyannis Airport - around 2:15 a.m., reports say - when he failed to arrive. The airport then checked with the Martha's Vineyard airport, and the search began.

The plane took off from Essex County Airport in Caldwell, N.J., at 8:38 p.m. Friday and lost contact with the FAA on its final approach to Martha's Vineyard, Mass., said Coast Guard spokesman Steve Carleton.

An emergency beacon thought to belong to the plane was activated and heard by the Coast Guard in Long Island, N.Y., at 3:40 a.m. But as the search went on, authorities seemed to discount the relevance of the beacon signal.

Kurt Hartman, spokesman for the U.S. Coast Guard's district headquarters in New Haven, Conn., said this morning, "We received a call from our district office in Boston directing us to conduct a shoreline search off Horton Point, in Long Island Sound, for an emergency locating transmitting beacon."

But by 10:30 a.m., the Coast Guard was no longer receiving a signal from the emergency beacon that was believed to be on Kennedy's small plane.

Petty Officer Virginia Adams in Boston confirmed to United Press International that the Coast Guard lost the signal Saturday morning. Adams also confirmed that Kennedy was piloting the plane, and that his wife and sister-in-law were aboard.

Jamie Gaspar, spokesman for Martha's Vineyard Airport, told UPI that "someone was at the airport to pick up the passengers on the plane, but it never arrived."

A reporter for the Vineyard Gazette newspaper told WCVB-TV in Boston that he was out walking Friday night about the time of the crash and saw "big white flash in the sky" off Philbin Beach.

Kennedy did not file a flight plan, leading some to first suspect he altered his route. But by 9 a.m., his arrival at Martha's Vineyard was more than 12 hours late, and the Kennedy family postponed the wedding he was traveling to attend.

The Air Force and Air National Guard mounted a massive air search using helicopters, Falcon jets and a TC-130 aircraft over a 1,000- square-mile search area that eventually concentrated on Martha's Vineyard.

The ongoing Coast Guard search involves a 47-foot utility boat, two 41-foot utility boats and an 87-foot patrol boat, as well as two Coast Guard helicopters.

Expected to join the search late tonight was a special ship from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration equipped with sonar to conduct underwater searches.

A special infrared-equipped helicopter was also set to join the nighttime search. Its temperature-sensitive equipment is capable of detecting a person in the water.

Kennedy Jr. - the only son of President John F. Kennedy and Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, and the nephew of Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass. - has worked as an assistant district attorney and is currently the editor of the political magazine George. Kennedy, 38, married Carolyn Bessette during a secretive ceremony in 1996.

WCVB-TV says Kennedy got his pilot's license last year after undergoing training at Flight Safety International, a respected pilots' school in Florida. He was licensed to fly visually, but not by using instruments alone. Visibility at the time was reported to be 8 miles, clear enough to fly without instruments.

The Piper Aircraft Co. says the six-passenger plane Kennedy was flying was built in 1995. WCVB-TV says Kennedy bought it in April of this year.

White House Chief of Staff John Podesta telephoned President Clinton this morning at Camp David with news of the missing plane. Clinton and Kennedy have met often.

In a statement issued from Camp David, where he is spending the weekend, Clinton said, "All our prayers and thoughts are with the families of those on board." The president has asked to be kept informed about the search effort.

Kennedy is a native of Washington. He was born on Nov. 25, 1960, just two months before his father was inaugurated as president.
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White flash in sky EXACTLY three years after TWA800 brought down by missile, same region.

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Radar Picks Up Ping

Sunday, 18 July 1999 21:26 (GMT), (UPI Spotlight)

AQUINNAH, Mass., July 18 (UPI) - The commander of the Coast Guard search and rescue operation looking for the plane carrying John F. Kennedy Jr. says (Sunday) searchers picked up "one ping" on radar that could have come from the plane's emergency beacon.

Rear Adm. Richard Larrabee said the sonar ship Rude is now heading to the location 4 1/2 miles southwest of Gay Head. Larrabee also said a decision would be made later this evening on whether to halt the search operation.

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?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? --------------------------------

-- watching the signs (as they@fly.by), July 18, 1999.

So it was probably a bomb???

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@It's ALL going away in January.com), July 18, 1999.

bomb or missile?

-- oo (oo@oo.oo), July 18, 1999.

Does anyone know if J.JR made any enemies from the mag he was affiliated with??? Also, any thoughts on how long a "grudge" might be held by some big boy deal makers from the 60's area????? Baby boomers.....what do you think? Also, wasn't he contemplating a run for a senate seat somewhere? If I were Carolyn, I would be shaking in my boots, and staying very low key....good role model...Jackie O.! Run for your life attitude to big Euro money person who has power to protect.

-- Moore Dinty moore (not@thistime.com), July 19, 1999.

Several speculations:

- Jr. will probably be the subject of much rumoring. Instantly you can see the motive behind a faked disappearance due to the problems he and the wife had at keeping the press at bay. Since he's a fabulously good looking hunk, lots and lots of people simply won't believe he is dead, similar to the Elvis phenomenon.

- I really really doubt that such a big deal would have been made of it if he'd been homely like Bobby Kennedy or simply a novice flyboy with no notoriety in public life. Why the facination?

- I really enjoyed his magazine, George, in spite of the liberal slant. It was still clever and had lots of insights you couldn't find anywhere else regarding the interface between media and politics. And yes, John could write very clearly.

- I wonder if those Kennedys carry the wrong allele of dopamine receptor. It seems as if they are addicted to competition, thrills, adrenaline, and sensation. Well, perhaps they die at 40 but at least get to obtain a richness of life experience worthy of a 90 year old.

- I agree that the Kennedys are very charming and have always looked good on camera. But the obsession our media has had with them has done far more harm than good to the public. It reinforces the idea that all you need to do to be labeled a hero is to be pretty and die young.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), July 19, 1999.

coprolith: Interesting thoughts. For my money J.Jr. was the only attractive member of the Kennedy tribe. With his death, perhaps the fascination with this family will finally subside, as it should have done years ago.

-- bury (them@al.ready), July 19, 1999.

Tuesday, 20 July 1999 12:12 (GMT), (UPI Spotlight)

JFK Jr. Plane Papers Wash Ashore

AQUINNAH, Mass., July 20 (UPI) - The registration papers to the airplane piloted by John F. Kennedy Jr. reportedly washed ashore on the beachfront property he inherited from his mother on Martha's Vineyard island.

The Cape Cod Times (Tuesday) reports a Kennedy search party on Saturday found the soggy but intact papers in a plastic container on a private beach.
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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), July 20, 1999.