"Diggable" cover for buried stuff in frozen ground

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Thank you to all who posted on my previous question of how to keep canned food from freezing in an unheated above ground container.

A couple of items I would like comments on. First, in frozen areas, if one decides to dig a hole (prior to the ground freezing) for food storage/hiding, what would be a good "covering" that would allow for easy access in frozen ground; i.e. what material would be a better covering than dirt -- allowing one to dig up the food when the rest of the ground is frozen solid (and digging would be VERY hard, noisy and time consuming) -- and still not be a "tip off" to "dig here for buried treasure"... Second, if one bugs out in a full size pickup truck (with a "hardened" shell/top), what container would one use to prevent canned goods from freezing. I've thought about an insulated container filled with nitrogen, argon or some such gas. Thoughts?

Third, thoughts on using canned food in a "winter camping" environment. Other post state canned food, if allowed to freeze, will bust or become unsafe to eat. Thoughts?

Thanks to all kind enough to share their ideas and info. BTW, I'm a Senior Computer Programmer/Analyst who is in charge of Y2K testing on a VERY LARGE mission critical system. IMHO, my employer, who I can not name, will probably be OK -- but IMHO most companies and society at large are in for lots of trouble, problems and disruptions. I've done numerous Y2K test over the last year. My company interfaces with lots of other organizations. I run the test over and over so different external organizations can test with us. So far, all testing of APPLICATIONS SOFTWARE is A-OK -- but IMHO, that is just "the tip of the iceberg". Most data processing people I know are in denial. I know enough to know what has to be tested for one to have a high confidence level. WHAT IS TESTED is just a PART of what needs to function. If I were to sum up the mindset of most programmer/analyst people I know it's this: "It can't happen...it would be too bad...therefore it won't"...sad, huh?

Cordially,

-- Louis (STLOUISLOUIS@YAHOO.COM), July 02, 1999

Answers

Louis--

First-- I haven't read your previous thread, so forgive me if any of the information I offer is duplicated.

The frost line varies in different areas due to the amount and length of cold weather. But it is a verifiable norm that can be ascertained by contacting your local plumbing contractor. They install underground pipes which are susceptible, of course, to freezing. They will know what the normal annual frost line is. Generally, your water service coming from the meter to your house will be buried at a safe distance below the frost line. This means that you can be reasonably assured that anything you bury below this depth will not be exposed to temperatures cold enough to freeze them.

Personally, I have worked with large diameter Water line made from thick wall PVC pipe (safe unless improperly filled with expandable gas such as nitrogen, CO2, (dry ice), and then only unsafe if improperly prepared. I find this to be the best possible cache option. It is impervious to animals, bugs, moisture, and detection, if handled correctly. I recommend one visit a plumbing shop or hardware store and look at the fittings available and have some fun inventing your own system. This allows for multiple sites of hidden stores, and more security than having all eggs in one basket so to speak.

As far as the bug out scenario- I would take a look at two stage expandable foam from a plastic specialty store. By combining the two agents the resulting foam will increase thirty times the original volume of the liquids. This can be used to create a thermos like environment for you perishables, if used as a lining, for even something as innocuous as a cardboard box. I can not remember the exact name of the expanding foam, but your plastics dealer should be able to help.

Finally, you can use a combination of these ideas, with a little imagination, and assume some peace of mind, in this area anyway. If you have any further questions or ideas, please feel free to email me. Good luck and God Bless!

Respectfully:

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), July 03, 1999.


A couple of items I would like comments on. First, in
       frozen areas, if one decides to dig a hole (prior to the
       ground freezing) for food storage/hiding, what would
       be a good "covering" that would allow for easy access
       in frozen ground; i.e. what material would be a better
       covering than dirt -- allowing one to dig up the food
       when the rest of the ground is frozen solid (and digging
       would be VERY hard, noisy and time consuming) --

You can get sheets of Styrofoam up to 5 1/2 inch thick. You may want to
think of making a Plug. The best idea is bales of hay IMHO, Peat moss might be a good idea to.

As for keeping cans from freezing in the cold I don't know. Never tried it.

Here is a few pages of idea's on how to survive in COLD weather. You may get some tips to help you.

Chop wood haul water

As for travelling in a truck and food I would recommend dehydrated soups or what ever and a 12 volt kettle to plug in to a lighter socket or propane gear. Have a couple of wide mouth thermoses to pour the boiling water in and mix soup or whatever.

If you are planning to leave in the winter have a place to go or don't bother.

If you do travel and have no place to go rent a trailer to tow behind the truck. As it would be off season it should be cheap and easy to rent.

Some ideas, let me know if you need more.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 03, 1999.


Oh and canned food that freezes will be safe to eat, though the can may blow. Small risk in my mind. Test out a cans of what you want to carry. Try freezing a couple in your freezer if you are unsure. I am sure though that the food quality drops but canned food has little quality anyway.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 03, 1999.

Try the northern survival site. They have tested freezing all sorts of packaged foods, and have posted the results.

-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), July 03, 1999.

Flame

Have you a URL? There is one but it wanted money so I tossed the URL but have never seen another. If they want money toss the URL.

To my knowledge there are no good winter emergency sites out there.

There is a Quebec one that is not bad, but if anyone could give me URLs of good winter sites there would be a lot of Canadians that could use the info.

Power loss in the cold. Don't do this at home kids. DIB DIB DOB, Be prepared.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 03, 1999.



I don't know where you're bugging out to, but if it's your own land and you are making some preparations for next year then the best digging sites that come to mind are : under your firewood, in your garden under hay or straw, under an old vehicle (but again covered with hay or something so the hole isn't visible) , under any supplies like lime or fertilizer (be sure they are triple bagged), under garbage cans. Survey the property and more ideas may come to you.Basically, you will still have to insulate it but then anything could be on top of it, an old brush or lumber pile for instance.

-- Sue (deco100@aol.com), July 03, 1999.

Bales of mulch hay would work well for insulation. We cover water lines that are shallow up here with hay bales and the temps go to 30-40- below , without lines freezing. I f you dig a hole- put some pieces of wood- 2X4, etc- across the hole for supports. then lay hay bales perpendicular to the wood supports. Cover the hole completely and then some. should be pretty good-

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), July 03, 1999.

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