In defense of Mr. Milne.

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

IMHO Paul Milne is the beneficiary of a classical education and an extremely intelligent man. His approach to warning people is effective and efficient. The very fact that he is issuing a warning at all is evidence of his concern for his fellow man.

That so many know his name and what he stands for is clear evidence that his methods are successful. When I first read his postings in csy2k, I became angry and contacted him via his e-mail address. He took the time to correspond with me on many ocassions and has since offered me advice when I have asked for it.

When I first became y2k aware, I became quite an activist. After months of futile attempts to get government and private agencies to make any pronouncements, I gave up. Paul has not given up and I admire him for it. Many of you don't like him and perhaps never will. I still hate my drill instructor, but I remember almost everything he shouted to me 40 years ago. "Butthead" was the kindest thing he ever called me.

Preparations must be made at the personal level. Can anyone really believe that our government does not understand the gravity of y2k? Their silence speaks volumes to me. Waiting for the government to speak reminds me of when I was a kid. I knew at an intellectual level that there was no Santa Clause but it did not become a reality until my mom and dad confirmed it. Has any politician or government agency, ever witheld good news?

Paul has probably awakened more people to the possibilities of y2k than all of us. I think he deserves a lot more credit than many of you have given him.

Bill in South Carolina

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), December 02, 1998

Answers

It is now December 1998. At this ridiculously late date, the "electroshock" approach that Paul Milne uses to convince people that preparation at the personal level is needed, may save lives!

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), December 02, 1998.

Bill, so glad to see you AND Hardliner back on the forum.

Be careful calling Paul Milne MR. though, it upsets Chris. :-)

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), December 02, 1998.


Bill, "Preparations must be made at the personal level" AND at the community level, at one and the same time.

IMHO, Paul can rant as much as his "drill seargent" (-1 sp) wants and it is ONE way to wake up SOME people, not the ONLY way and not ALL people. He also needs his mouth washed out with soap!

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), December 02, 1998.


Paul is like a foghorn. Under the right circumstances, a foghorn can save your life.

Also, consider: A foghorn is loud and obnoxious. It never gets tired, and its message never changes. It shows no evidence of intelligence, logic, or rational thought. It is incapable of engaging in dialogue, evaluating conflicting claims, recognizing other opinions, or admitting error. The presence of actual fog is completely irrelevant.

When you think about it, the similarities are amazing.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), December 02, 1998.


In answer to Flint' who wrote:

Paul is like a foghorn. Under the right circumstances, a foghorn can save your life. Also, consider: A foghorn is loud and obnoxious. It never gets tired, and its message never changes. It shows no evidence of intelligence, logic, or rational thought. It is incapable of engaging in dialogue, evaluating conflicting claims, recognizing other opinions, or admitting error. The presence of actual fog is completely irrelevant.

When you think about it, the similarities are amazing.

====

A loud and obnoxious noise is precisely what is needed. It is what wakes people out of their malaise. Do you think that a foghorn is necessary if folks are wide awake and alert? No. They are asleep. They will not listen much to reason. A loud and obnoxious noise does an adequate job.

Yes, I never get tired. And I won't give up and get tired until it is over. I never give up.

No the message does not need to change.

How much inteligence, logic or rational thought is required to say "You are heading for the rocks, butthead? See the rocks? Go the other wya. Takes a whole PhD to figure that out flint?

I do not need to engage in dialog when warning of the rocks ahead. Perhaps you prefer that a lighthouse say, "Excuse me Mr. Ship Captain, but there are rocks ahead. Or perhaps we can engage in a dialoge for twelve months and discuss what the word 'rocks' actually consists of. Then maybe we can dialogue about what 'ahead' means."

Conflicting claims. Now there is a rich one. Somehow because **YOU** are having difficulty in deciding the veracity of the claims you think others have the same mental defect. As a blind man, do you think everyone is blind because you are?

I 'recognize' that other people have opinions. But you are more concerned with 'merely recognizing' them rather than disputing their veracity. Or maybe you are just to immature to realize that just because there are several opinions they are not all true.

I am honored though, flint, that you spend 99% of your posts disputing me. Maybe you can explain to us all why you still live in a heavily populated area? And then maybe you can explain the one to one co-releation between your remaining in a populated area and your resolute pollyanna-ism.

flint, I get dozens and dozens of e-mails EVERY day from people in this country and abroad saying thank you for waking me up. I also get a few 'hate mail' types every day as well. When I add them up, i find that I am way way way way ahead of the game. many lives will have been spared. I am realy not in the least bit concerned about any BUTTHEAD Pollyannas that I have insulted. They are dead any way. They are dead from the neck up, now, and they will be dead from their calculated ignorance in a few short months.

If you want to conduct round table forums and 'dialogues, with tea- cups in your lap, pinkies akimbo, go ahead. I have'nt got the time for panty-waists.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), December 02, 1998.



Sorry Bill, but I have to disagree...

You may have helped some people decide to bug-out of the cities to save their selfish asses Mr. Milne. But nothing you have done has contributed to saving our civilization. I'll take a dozen "dizzy broads" trying to bring the message to the masses over one drill seargent trying to save a few selfish rich people. Very few can bug-out the way you have, so your advice helps little.

By the way, as far as I can tell hardly anyone knows who Milne is outside of c.s.y2k and Yourdon's forum.

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), December 02, 1998.


Dianne, you insist that preparedness must include the community. Community preparedness is only effective if it is built on a base of personal preparedness.

Only if I am prepared to a great extent can I have the freedom to join others to solve problems that don't lend themselves to individual effort -- communications, providing for the sick and elderly, assuring distribution of water, and things of this nature.

To insist on community preparedness without first establishing this base of personal preparedness is selfishness => asking others to provide what we (you and I) are capable of providing for ourselves.

This is the same logic that lead the Canadian RCMP to establish safe havens for the families of those who will be asked to provide community 'protection.'

Unfortunately, personal preparedness has nothing to do with mingling community spirits and the other new age concepts you espouse. It is intensely personal. It is survival, and I approach it in with the same dedication I applied to diving into a rice paddy full of human manure because a North Korean was shooting at me. Not fun, but necessary!

-- rocky (rknolls@hotmail.com), December 02, 1998.


Buddy (DC) :

You're a complete idiot.

And an embarrasment to intelligent men and women everywhere.

To equate people preparing to save themselves and family by leaving the cities as "selfish asses" shows what a piece of Leftist crap you are.

"Leftist" was easy to determine as you obviously hate the wealthy by classifying them as "selfish".

Insanely jealous? Obviously.

You are the type of idiots that I fear most. You are the type of numbskulls that would relish a police state to make sure we were all "even" in your eyes. I despise imbeciles like you that think in communistic capacitites.

You are the asswipes that will be the ones taking from those that have prepared. Because as you sit on your jealous-hateful-ass waiting for "community solutions" to save our "civilization", some of us are preparing ourselves and families.

Funny how folks like us and Mr. Milne are targets of you idiots.

And before you say it...I'm not rich by any means. My wife and I are working 2 jobs each to make ends meet, and we managed to "bug out of the city" by making sacrifices you jealous-ridden-asswipes won't.

Trusting wisdom in a "dozen dizzying broads" shows how inept in wisdom you yourself are Buddy.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), December 02, 1998.


Ah, namecalling...it's so easy isn't it? I catch myself doing it only too late and avoid it when I conciously can. Go ahead, call me an idiot. What does it prove? I maintain that anyone is an idiot at certain times.

INVAR, has it occurred to you yet what will happen if the shit hits the fan the way Milne and you apparently believe it will? You think you will be able to defend your enclave? If it's as bad as you seem to think it will be your chances are not much better than anyone else's. Without cooperation and civilization your enclave is history like anything else.

There may be hard times coming, and I believe there are, but it ain't goin' down that hard!

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), December 02, 1998.


I am really discouraged at "community preparedness" at this point, and have decided that there must be some cosmic design beyond my ken at work here. Efforts to get grown children, parents, siblings, etc. to prepare have been met with yawns. My husband and I are having to finance this burden alone, and of course, we are their "backup plan".

I am beyond discouraged. Fed UP! At what point should the sandwich generation demand that those who are planning to "fall back" on good ol' ma and pa help pick up the burden of preparation? Or am I having momentary panic

-- Jackie Joy (jacquej@netsync.net), December 02, 1998.



Buddy: I have noticed that your stance has become progressively more pessimistic since July or so. You are gradually realizing what Milne has known for over a year now. I'll give you three more months and I bet you're wishing you were his neighbor.

-- a (a@a.a), December 02, 1998.

Hey, how did this thread pass by me unseen for so long? ;)

"Be careful calling Paul Milne MR. though, it upsets Chris. :-)" -Gayla

Well, I reserve the title MR. to people I respect. Buddy (DC) has expressed my sentiment pretty nicely in regard to Milne's approach.

I don't care if it was the governor of my state, I wouldn't call him "Mr." if he called others buttheads and assholes. Just a case of self-respect with me ;)

-- Chris (Catsy@pond.com), December 02, 1998.


That's true a.a.a. I have gotten more pessimistic, but not to the point that I'd want to live next door to Milne. I already live in the next state from what I hear and that's close enough.

Calling people dizzy broads, morons, idiots, panty waists, buttheads. etc, etc, etc doesn't strike me as a reasonable thing to be doing. Why would I want to live next to someone who acts so unreasonable?

A quote I heard tonight applies well to both Milne and Gary North. I don't know who first said it, but it makes sense to me.

"If you can't trust the messenger, you can't trust the message."

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), December 02, 1998.


Buddy (DC) -

Ahhh Buddy, I learned the art of name calling from Liberal Leftists over this past summer. I apparently watched too many cable talk shows. The difference is most liberal idiots start namecalling in the face of facts, to avoid the issues. I have modified the art form to call things what they are. As I said, because you referred to those of us who "bugged-out" of the city as "selfish asses" and derrided the rich in your post, I called you what you are based on your response: an idiot. I maintain most liberal socialists/leftists are idiots MOST of the time.

As far as accepting TEOTWAWKI in terms of TSHTF, I have mentally prepared myself and family for the worst. It's the first step to survival. It is true that in that event we may not survive in total chaos, but know this: unlike you "community saviors", I will not go quietly into the night. I will go standing up, not lying down.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), December 02, 1998.


Let's see Buddy (DC), "If you can't trust the messenger, you can't trust the message."

Or in Clinton's and you Leftist's playbook it's "Shoot the messenger, discredit the message".

Milne and North have suffered from that play, I suspect they and the rest of us who believe in the seriosness of Y2K will be slimed in earnest by those pollyannas that have power to hold onto.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), December 02, 1998.



INVAR, I am no pollyanna.

Truce, OK?

If this were a bar, I'd offer to buy you a drink.

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), December 02, 1998.


Jackie Joy, I know your concern. I have it too. I have decided on the following: I am storing supplies for my 3 sons and families. If they show up the food goes faster, but we have the extra hands needed. If they don't then it's because it isn't needed and I simply eat the food I stored for them.

May take me a few years, but I should have really low grocery bills for that time.

They have a place to fall back to And, they're family.

I have had offers from 1 of the 3 to contribute. He's living overseas now and won't return until October, 1999 -- just in time for the fire works. My guess is that they'll all be here........maybe it's time for another sack of rice, eh?

-- rocky (rknolls@hotmail.com), December 02, 1998.


I don't have a problem with community efforts like Cassandra Project, in fact I support them. I'm still divided on whether or not to relocate, and I feel time is running out. But that's my opinion. Milne, on the other hand, is sincerely convinced that the only solution is immediate evacuation; and based on the information I have amassed, he could easily be right.

Milne I think learned long ago that he could attract more attention if he interspersed his correspondence with insults and expletives. And it probably keeps his blood pressure down. I know I have to strain to keep my posts decent, and sometimes I fail. Personally, I find the banter entertaining (loosen up, guys...)

But know this: the man is extremely intelligent and a prolific writer. He is the leader on c.s.y2k for accurate and timely reporting of current events; nobody even comes close. And he has said things that make me question some of my basic beliefs, which sometimes can be a *good* thing.

I just hope his Kool-Aid doesn't suck...:)

-- a (a@a.a), December 02, 1998.


Buddy (DC)-

Make it a Southern and Coke.

Cigar??

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), December 02, 1998.


"Calling people dizzy broads, morons, idiots, panty waists, buttheads. etc, etc, etc doesn't strike me as a reasonable thing to be doing. Why would I want to live next to someone who acts so unreasonable?" ------Buddy

"You may have helped some people decide to bug-out of the cities to save their selfish asses.." -- also Buddy

Are we saying that it's OK if Buddy calls people names (selfish asses), but unreasonable if others call people names?

Or, would we perhaps say that this is hypocrisy?

Hmm.......?

Children, play nice, now.

-- rocky (rknolls@hotmail.com), December 02, 1998.


Bill, I have to come down in the Milne camp too on this one. Anybody who takes a stand and is sure of their beliefs these days gets abuse, especially when it conflicts with the P.C. wisdom of the day. Liberals and ignoramouses can dish it out, but man do they howl when a little hot wax gets poured on them! I live on a farm already-have for 20 years. Invar, you should have talked to me first buddy . Hell I'd give you a few acres on one side and a few more to Paul on the other. Then let em try something! BTW, a liberal by any other name is still an...................................IDIOT! best regards..........

-- doktorbob (downsouth@dixie.com), December 02, 1998.

I'm all for Paul Milne. I don't condone his namecalling, but I just accept it. The amount he does it decreases the amount each name means. If Paul called me a butthead, I'd take it very lightly. If, say, Diane or Leska called me a butthead, I'd take it a lot more seriously because those people aren't anywhere near as liberal with their insults.

And yes, heavy language is often IMO useful in getting the point across.

--Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), December 03, 1998.


Leo, you butthead.

Ashton and Leska in Cascadia, where buttheads grow on trees.

xxxxxxxxx

-- Leska (leska@cascadia.com), December 03, 1998.


In answer to Buddy who wrote:

You may have helped some people decide to bug-out of the cities to save their selfish asses Mr. Milne.

Explain to me how protecting your children and being social responsible so that you will not be a burden on others is 'selfish'. Would I be 'altruistic if I saw a catastrophe coming and I put my children right in the middle of it because there were others who could not leave?

But nothing you have done has contributed to saving our civilization.

This 'assumes' that 'saving civilization' (whatever that nebulous claptrap means) is a desirable thing or that it could even be done in the first place. I do not think that 'saving' THIS civilization *IS* desirable, You are entitled to your opinion. I believe that it is beyond reform in much the same manner as Sodom and Gommorrah were beyong reform. And please remember, it was a **GOOD** thing that it was destroyed. Second, you are merely ignorant of the fact that there is not enough time or resources or commitment to fix the problem IN TIME.

I'll take a dozen "dizzy broads" trying to bring the message to the masses over one drill seargent trying to save a few selfish rich people.

I am not rying to save any class of people. I do understand your class envy though. It is the typical jealousy of the one who considers himself a failure and then projects that upon those whom he hates.

By the way, I have not made more than twelve thousand dollars per year in the last three years. Yet I have managed to prepare in spades even with a wife and five kids.

Very few can bug-out the way you have, so your advice helps little.

Yes, you are right. LOL 99% of the poulation of this country has MORE resources than I do. However I manage them better. I do not have a Lexus. I have a twenty year old junker with a leaky carburetor. I live within my means. I grow most of my own food and we probably eat better than you.

By the way, as far as I can tell hardly anyone knows who Milne is outside of c.s.y2k and Yourdon's forum.

And how would this be relevant? Certainly it would be an appropriate reponse had one said that I was widely known outside my milleu. As such, yours is a response to a claim that was not made. But it does indeed reveal another facet of your seethoing jealousy.

Can you explain for all of us here why you are so jealous of me?

There, there, little one. I understand. Let me pat you on the head and tuck you in now. Nity-nite. Pleasant dreams.

-- Paul Milne (fedifo@halifax.com), December 03, 1998.


Mr. Paul Milne,

I sincerely hope you have realized that the above clever but disturbing silliness posted in my name did not in any way come from Ashton or myself. Apparently someone is faking others' names and posts, just as some did to you. Life is short; Ashton & I spend our time literally watching people die, from various illnesses, in our work as hospice caregivers, so we neither insult nor judge others as we have a keen and practical sense of karma and God.

We admire all efforts by others to awaken all types of people to the seriousness of preparing for natural and man-made disasters. We also believe that a person's heart instinctively shrinks from insults, threats and barbs, and therefore that blastee automatically shuts off a large portion of their receptivity. So we don't go that route.

We all must live with our conscience.

Ashton & Leska in Cascadia, who are working toward the Vedic definition of a man of God: "Softer than the flower, where kindness is concerned; stronger than the thunder, where principles are at stake."

xxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 03, 1998.


rocky...way up the thread.. a statement about "Preparations must be made at the personal level" AND at the community level, at one and the same time... caused you to somehow claim that I don't support personal preparation. How do you extropolate that? AND means AND, not BUT....

And Paul still needs a bar of soap.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), December 03, 1998.


Is this really the legendary Paul M, or is it an im-poster (like Leo).

To pre-empt Dick Butthead

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), December 03, 1998.


Diane,

[long post]

My point, made elsewhere, is that community preparation can only proceed from a basis of individual preparation, that individual preparation must come first -- the two can not proceed simultaneously.

Don't get me wrong, community preparation is a necessity because there will always be some who can not prepare; elderly, sick, very young, etc. [If you look carefully at Paul Milne's own plans, for example, he envisions 'community' -- but his is first of all a community of family.]

There are some problems that require community action. For example, we (locally) have the need to try to emplace a backup emergency response system, using ham radio, CB, etc. This obviously is a community project. Water needs (long term) might be a community project, but individuals have to take responsibility for their own short term needs.

Referring to "simultaneous" individual and community preparation obscures the need for the foundation of individual preparedness. Here's an example -- In my rural community we're looking at using water tanks, pumping from wells where individuals have generators capable of running their pumps, and distributing water as needed for survival. We can not do that unless individual preparation has preceeded the community action: individuals must have generators, water tanks, gas for vehicles etc. We're not about to attempt to (illegally) tax people to buy community equipment for this purpose, but we can look at inventorying the community, and asking people to provide a little........you might be asked to pump 800 gallons of water every 16 days, using your well, generator and fuel, so that it can be distributed. That works if you're prepared individually, but only then. Community preparedness must draw on the resources of individual preparedness. The two can not be simultaneous.

Underlying all of this is the much demonstrated fact that many individuals simply will not prepare -- to any extent. Example: can you, for example, store sufficient food and water to provide for 1 other person? 10 others? 100 others? How about 1000? Now, can you run a community preparedness program that provides for these people? Where does the money come from? Where do you store it? How do you distribute it? Although we are supposed to live in a republic, we've degraded to a democracy, so the 1000 who won't provide for themselves will also object to community preparation in their name -- if it involves the use of their money.

At the top level, many of the potential problems, especially those involving food and water, can be solved by massive federal intervention. [Buy and stockpile food in large cities, then smaller cities, etc. Assure the population that they will be fed.] Hey, that's community preparation, isn't it? If that happens, we've lost any last vestige of being a free nation.

The reason one sees letters, such as Leon Kappleman's Open Letter to President Clinton (calling for the goverment to declare Y2K an emergency) is that individuals have not been asked to prepare. Indeed, even on this forum we have people who say, "Ah, it won't be that bad," with the result that yet others read this and decide that there's nothing to worry about. So, they're discouraged from preparing.

Every individual or family that fails to prepare is another individual or family that must be either cared for by other people in a time of crisis, or must be consigned to the scrap heap. [People object to being called names by Paul Milne -- I do too -- but don't overlook the fact that he's trying, in his own way, to prevent them from ending up on the scrap heap. There, this post is now 'on-topic' to this thread.]

That's my take: hang on as a family or individual until recovery can take place, and be a part of the solution by not being a part of the problem. This means that indivdual prep comes first.......community prep later, from the base of being ready personally. It's not simultaneous. Moreover, the degree to which community prep is successful depends on the state of individual preparedness.

-- rocky (rknolls@hotmail.com), December 03, 1998.


Congratulations, Mr. Milne, you managed to post without resorting to men's locker room language.

We seem to disagree entirely in our world views. I'll leave it at that.

In response to Rocky, perhaps you missed my statement above: "Ah, namecalling...it's so easy isn't it? I catch myself doing it only too late and avoid it when I conciously can."

I guess I caught myself too late once again. There are always better ways to say something without insults and name-calling, but it takes more effort and sometimes the excitement of the moment gets the best of me.

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), December 03, 1998.


Buddy, there's a huge difference between calling annonymous people at large "selfish asses", and calling someone your talking to a selfish ass. Rocky'S just grabing on for anything to get at you.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 03, 1998.

Rocky, There is not enough Y2K time left for your sequential "community preparation can only proceed from a basis of individual preparation, and that individual preparation must come first -- the two can not proceed simultaneously." That's getting stuck in linear thinking. (Left-brain skew, skewered?).

They will have to be simultaneous (creative), as are all Y2K fixit endeavors across the globe.

Diane

(Some people can spit and chew gum at the same time, or talk on the phone and type into the internet newsmedia web-sites at the same time, prepare food for canning while convincing a visitor to prepare for Y2K, etc....)

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), December 03, 1998.


"If you can't trust the messenger, you can't trust the message" was stated, over and over, to the jury during closing arguments by Johnny Cochran to get O.J. Simpson acquited when he was on trial for two murders back in 1994. And, when you are on a jury charged with determining whether someone has been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, then that is a reasonable point to consider.

It does not apply to the Y2K problem. We are not trying to determine whether the Y2K scenarios of Gary North, Infomagic, et al, will bear up as to whether they have proven their "case" beyond a reasonable doubt, and as to what their "hidden agendas" might be. If anything, the burden of proof should rightly fall on disproving their scenarios, because to err here is to err on the side of caution.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), December 03, 1998.

Just to clarify for Chris and Rocky, I did not call anyone "selfish asses." The phrase was "to save their selfish asses." Asses as in butts. I didn't consider that name-calling when I wrote it, but since it was interpreted as such I apologize.

I don't have any "class envy" either. I was simply trying to make the point that the only people who can bug-out are those with the wherewithal to do it; for the most part those are going to be fairly wealthy people. If you're not fairly wealthy and you are bugging out, then I think on the one hand you are making a rash decision but on the other hand you are to be commended for marshalling your limited resources to enable you to change your entire lifestyle.

I'm sorry for tying up so much bandwidth, but the tone in Paul Milne's posts always sets me off, which is why the tone of my post was so harsh.

Thanks for the support Chris.

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), December 03, 1998.


Well, Diane, I agree with you that there isn't enough time to do both individual and community preparation sequentially.

I also stand on my statement that individual preparedness is the cornerstone or foundation on which survial of a major disruption will depend.

Surprised?

Don't be.....that's why I think we're going to be in deep trouble.

But, you can prove me wrong, Dianne. Just tell me how you envision preparing a community in which the individuals aren't prepared? Practical suggestions, Diane, not "let's all hold hands and hope for the best." Don't give me left brain/right brain nonsense, Dianne. I am asking you to define a practical -- working -- program to prepare a community in which no individuals are prepared.

-- rocky (rknolls@hotmail.com), December 03, 1998.


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