Q.T.Quazar, excerpts from original post on why TG leadebroard is a bad idea, from the Editor's Board (all comments within this and the subsequent posts have been scanned and edited to protect Editor-only sensitive material):(posted 9295 days ago)---
A) It will shift focus almost exclusively to the new board, potentially leaving regular MARP as a 'dumping ground' for .inps not good enough for the tourney or the TG leaderboard.
B) I would estimate 95-97% of current MARP scores are legit.
C) TgMAME is NOT a valid MAME derivative because of closed source and encryption(flashes of Stig here, but he IS right in this respect), and if the MAME team asked us to withdraw its circulation we would be required to do so.
D) Added focus to TG-only would increase the likelihood of people spending more time hacking it.
E) More work for Zwaxy, because none of us have code access except for gb9, and anytime he plays with the code he breaks the Up Loads screen (sorry GB, that was low :) ) (does Pat have access to code, or only to the game database?)
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skito, excerpts from rebuttal
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Some comments on qt's adamant refusal to accept the possibility of a tg leaderboard... I realise i'm probably in the minority here but i have to address these issues. A) It will shift focus almost exclusively to the new board: Isn't that the point? i think having more focused towards tgmame recordings would eliminate a large amount of pausing and slowdowns, right now they are our major problem. B) I would estimate 95-97% of current MARP scores are legit. Agreed: but i'd say an average marp player can not playback 50% of the recordings because most people don't have the time to track down dos/windows/xmame versions to play them back. with tgmame we can consolidate the recordings so they'll be more playbackable and more accessable to all that come here (one world, one version) C) TgMAME is NOT a valid MAME derivative because of closed source and encryption. We face this same issues with tournaments and tgmame recordings on the regular board, this is not an additional concern. D) Added focus to TG-only would increase the likelihood of people spending more time hacking it.
Tournament's are already focus enough to make this hacking probablity increase; plus, it's a lot easier to hack 8 recordings than to hack 100s that would be required to gain access to the top 10 leaderboard.
E) More work for Zwaxy
zwaxy's not doing any work right now :) This is the only major concern here that it might not be able to be done with the time allocated
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Q.T.Quazar, excerpts from rebuttal
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Your argument is somewhat persuasive along the 'one world, one version' lines, but you fail to realize that by allowing TG MAME only you then eliminate Mac, UNIX, and other OS users, who do not have TG MAME versions available. The only way to get it to them is to open the code. Catch 22.
Not mentioned in my original post is my belief that a TG MAME only MARP will not be effective at attracting new players. With may pick up a few more of the 'premiers,' but noone will come join to try out the new beta games. With some of the established score bases for previous betas at MARP, people won't challenge those either. No influx.
If we implement a new, TG-only leaderboard, we will essentially be saying that the old leaderboard is worthless, and the scores on it are not to be trusted. This is primarily why I am so vehemently opposed to the idea. Some of my .inps, like my own 500K+whatever on Magical Drop 3 (Challenge Mode Normal), are extremely, EXTREMELY hard to do, and I have no wish to try and replicate that score for another leaderboard. Opinion on this topic is of course going to be skewed by those who have less invested in the current leaderboard towards those who have more. While I imagine Mark would think a TG leaderboard to be a great idea, I doubt very much that BBH would. I have hundreds of hours invested in recording to MARP, and I don't wish my scores to be junked simply because a few players can't play fair.
I don't like the attitude that is beginning to prevail with some people at MARP that TGMAME, and even TG, is the answer to all our problems. TGMAME is an ILLEGAL VERSION of an emulator of QUESTIONABLE LEGALITY using ROMS which ARE ILLEGAL. There is no need to compound this problem further by pursuing routes of exclusivity .I can't stress this enough. Yes we use TGMAME in tournaments. Yes we use TGMAME to be sure of a player's skill. But the challenge motion is the last step needed towards proving a score, and it doesn't require TGMAME to be THE MAIN FOCUS, only part of the process. Your argument of "We face this same issues with tournaments and tgmame recordings on the regular board, this is not an additional concern." is the same logic as pretending that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Having TG only also puts the power of design for such a thing strictly in the hands of the coder(s). While I would not make any accusations, that's an exclusivity arrangement that is unacceptable to an open community like MARP.
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skito, excerpts from rebuttal
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About eliminating users by encouraging tgmame: We only eliminate them untill we can teach mark or whom ever how to compile it on that platform. It is easy as heck to compile xmame (probably about a hundred times less complex than dos mame), inserting the encryption code would be another issue but once it's compiled you can distribute the binaries, i know all of the xmame uploaders use linux so that binary will suffice for 100% of the unix users so far. I'll use the C) rebuttal again, this is already an issue with the tournaments, no mac players, no unix players...
yep nearly everything everyone does before they upload to marp is illegal. tgmame is sort of an illegal mame version. even krogman was uploading a version of tetris i knew he didn't own, plus that magix one... We take this risk because we love the games for one reason or another. I think the rom legality is a bit more criminal than the tgmame legality; Although two wrongs definitley don't make a right, one wrong and another minor wrong doesn't make it much more wronger. (i love debating with english majors :)
about not wanting to make recordings again for mag drop and bbh having tons of scores "supposed" he doesn't want to record again, This is what challenges are going to do: make someone honest (or not) attempt to make another bitchingly hard recording. anyone who's spent time in a game WILL be challenged to replay it. A tgleaderboard puts less pressure on the players rather than having their recordings challenged by the marp team. they can upgrade their recordings when they feel like it. although i like the challenge system we are proposing, ben's ideas are great (the minimum requirement is game dependant not a fixed percentage, this would depend on the jury being experts in the game another problem with selecting a jury of peers.)
With a tg leaderboard you don't have to make all your recordings again. There will be no denial of service for people that want to upload non tg recordings, they'd still be welcome as ever. And you'll still have your regular marp score as you would always have, you could even improve upon it.
As for losing your hard worked "invested" points. nothing is lost, there is just more opporunity to play. Everyone starts from scratch (except for the biased few that competed in tournaments or record with tg when ever they can) and i doubt anyone will have as many recordings as they do on the regular board.
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Q.T.Quazar, final comments:
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These excerpts from the Editor's Board originated as a discussion of whether or not we should introduce a challenge system at MARP, to which skito is somewhat opposed (he prefers a TG leaderboard instead), and which I am for. I can also post the discussion about that later, but need to make sure there's nothing in there to offend regular MARPers. I feel the challenge system would be a far better method of veryfying recordings and ensuring legitimacy. I will state, however, that I will not play under a TG-only leaderboard, if the code for TGMAME stays in the hands of a select few who do not have to answer to anyone else at the community. I may not like what Stig did at MARP, but he WAS right on a number of points. Just as MAME was meant to be open, so was MARP.
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Q.T.Quazar, MARP Rules Coordinator